Dr Phil and Domestic Violence: He Just Doesn’t Get It
Oh, Dr Phil. . . From time to time, Shrink4Men community members email to let me know that they’ve sent links of my articles to the Dr Phil and Oprah shows because they believe the material here is important and should be seen by a wider audience. I thank them, but tell them not to be surprised if the topic of female perpetrated domestic violence and parental alienation continues to be ignored by these two talk show titans. Oprah is unlikely to ever go there, for obvious reasons, and Dr Phil. . . well, who knows what reasoning lurks behind that moustache.
Dr Phil describes the January 10, 2011 episode, Afraid of My Husband, as a case of he said-she said. The wife, Sonja, says her husband, Lawrence, is abusive while he says he’s just reacting to her abuse. Fair enough, most high-conflict domestic cases are one partner’s word against the other’s, which is why I encourage men and women in these situations to document, document, document. In the digital age, it needn’t be a case of he said-she said.
The show begins with a request for help from Lawrence’s sister, Krishina:
Dear Dr Phil,
I’m reaching out to you to appeal for your guidance, assistance and intervention. My brother and sister-in-law are in a marriage that is in unimaginable shambles.
Both of them are so angry about so many things.
They are immensely disrespectful to one another and allow their children to consistently hear their horrific exchange of words. I am beyond hope sometimes in thinking that this monstrous situation can ever be changed.
Please note, Krishina is describing bi-directional abuse; she describes bad behavior from both parties. She denies knowing about any physical violence in the relationship. Dr Phil then plays some audio of the couple. Here’s the first thing the audience hears:
Sonja: I’m afraid of my husband. Lawrence isn’t the man I married. We fight all the time.Lawrence: Sonja can argue 24/7.Sonja: My husband will always start the fight.Lawrence: She’s very combative and she instigates a lot of fights. She’ll push my buttons.Sonja: Lawrence calls me every name in the book. Idiot. Bitch, Fat ass. He’s yelled F— you to me in front of the kids. I’ve been called a c—. A f—ing c—.Lawrence: Sonja’s called me a loser. A f—ing a–hole.Sonja: Lawrence is violent. Lawrence has punched holes in our armoire, doors. He has broken skateboards.Lawrence: Sonja’s broken two laptops, a big TV. She gets very violent. She’s hit me multiple times.Sonja: When I’m violent towards Lawrence, I’m trying to protect myself and the children. I explode and I’m violent towards him.Lawrence: I’m not violent. I’m just responding to what Sonja’s actually doing.Sonja: When I was pregnant, he twisted my arm and forced me to the ground and I just sat there and I’m like, ‘Do you realize what you just did? You just threw me down and I have a child in my stomach,’ and no response. Nothing.Lawrence: A total fabrication. I didn’t throw her down when she was pregnant. She gets in my face and pokes me. She’ll knock your head off. She’ll spit in my face. I’ve had to run away and lock myself in a closet just so I can get away from her.Sonja: Once when we were at a hotel…Lawrence: She grabbed a laptop and threw the laptop against the wall…
The two of them have different descriptions of the altercation that ensued. Sonja insists that Lawrence kicked her in the stomach and pushed her to the bed. Lawrence states that Sonja got in his face because she wanted his attention while he was on the computer. He tried to leave the room after she broke his laptop, but she blocked his egress and he pushed her to the bed in order to get away from her. The police report states that Sonja had red marks on her chest and that her shirt appeared “pulled and stretched” and that Lawrence had red marks on his chest as well and a cut upper lip.
Dr Phil questions Lawrence and he admits pushing Sonja was wrong and that kicking her would’ve been wrong, but maintains that he did not kick her. Dr Phil does not ask Sonja if it was wrong to throw the laptop against the wall. He does not call her on her behavior throughout the entire episode.
Dr Phil asks the couple to stand up and points out their size difference because, of course, someone who’s smaller in stature couldn’t possibly abuse someone who’s bigger despite ample research that proves otherwise. Gotta love that reasoning—never mind the fact that Lawrence had a cut lip and that Sonja admits she instigated the altercation by destroying his property and blocking the doorway when he tried to exit.
Sonja accuses Lawrence of being a control freak and of “pestering [her] for sex.” She states sex with her husband feels like “a job” and that she thinks he “isn’t appreciative enough” when she does agree to have sex with him. She even claims that he raped her one night as she slept. Dr Phil does not challenge her on this. I’m a sound sleeper, but I’m pretty sure I’d wake up during the act unless I was passed out cold on sleeping meds. In other words, I don’t believe her rape claim. Lawrence denies this calmly and matter of fact-ly as opposed to Sonja who becomes indignant on more than one occasion. An example of DARVO, perhaps?
Sonja admits to her abusive behaviors; Dr Phil says nothing.
If you don’t want to watch the entire episode, click and drag the YouTube embed below to 17:01 on the counter. Sonja openly admits that she has spit in her husband’s face, kicked a hole through their big screen TV (she smirks and suppresses a laugh when Dr Phil mentions this particular incident), has broken Lawrence’s laptop computer not once, but twice and that she gets in his face to make him listen, so much so that Lawrence has shut himself in a closet with his feet bracing the door to get away from her.
Sonja admits to hitting, kicking and punching her husband in the chest, arms and stomach. She claims she is violent towards Lawrence because he is violent towards their children and still Dr Phil says nothing. Yeah, because you teach children that violence is wrong by engaging in more violence. It wobbles the mind.
Question: If you were living in fear of your partner, would you strike him, spit in his face, get in his face, chase him into closets and break his property or would you be tiptoeing around him so as not to set him off? Something doesn’t add up here. When I’m afraid of someone, I try not to provoke or deliberately antagonize the person, but that’s just me. How about you?
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YouTube DirektDr Phil Afraid of My Husband
The couples’ son holds both of his parents accountable; Dr Phil says nothing.
Lawrence describes how Sonja undermines his parenting. When he tries to set limits with the kids, she tells the kids they don’t have to listen to their father. Essentially, Lawrence is frustrated by his wife continuously undermining his parenting and he expresses his frustration by being hard on and physically rough with the kids. For example, he tells his son to leave the kitchen because he’s not doing his homework after being asked several times to do so. Lawrence becomes frustrated and physically propels his son out of his chair by his shoulder.
Lawrence says he feels bad about this and owns that his behavior is wrong. Sonja is never asked if it’s wrong for her to undermine her husband when he tries to set reasonable limits and consequences for the kids. Given Sonja’s behavior toward Lawrence, I’d be willing to bet she behaves in a similar fashion towards the kids when they don’t listen to her, that is, if they dare to disobey her. Dr Phil never asks these questions, however.
Go to 22:29 to hear the couple’s son describe what goes on at home. Notice the boy attributes abusive behaviors to both parents equally, states he wishes his parents wouldn’t put him in the middle and that his mom talks to him a lot about why she and his father fight. This is most likely an indication that Sonja is parentifying her son and possibly attempting parental alienation—at least their son’s words raise these potential red flags for me. Dr Phil doesn’t explore this, however.
Dr Phil tells the couple the potential consequences of exposing their children to their ongoing conflict and violence.
At 24:50, Dr Phil lists the possible consequences of exposing kids to abuse and violence. He makes some good points until he says the following: “These kids will be aggressive in their relationships. The girls will be aggressed against and he is likely to become an aggressor.” Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Dr Phil, just you stop right there.
It’s a coin toss as to which child will become the aggressor and which ones will become the aggressed. The boy has seen his mother attack his father and his father defend himself against his mother. The girls have seen their mother physically assault their father. Why is the boy destined to become the aggressor and why are the girls destined to become the victims? Utter poppycock.
Granted, I think it’s a given that these kids are going to be screwed up for years to come because both of their parents are dysfunctional and engaging in a mutually abusive relationship, but Dr Phil’s prediction is biased. I think there’s a very strong likelihood the daughters will grow up to be aggressors who play the role of professional victim. Way to perpetuate a false stereotype that paints all men as potential abusers, Dr Phil.
Dr Phil tells the husband his behavior is abuse and, in the same breath, describes the wife’s violent behavior and provocations as a “relationship issue.”
Dr Phil, in no uncertain terms (26:03), calls Lawrence out for his abusive behavior, which I believe is largely a dysfunctional coping mechanism he employs when confronted with his wife’s own highly aggressive, confrontational, abusive and violent behavior. Then, in what I can only describe as one of my biggest “WTF, Dr Phil?!” moments ever, he minimizes and justifies Sonja’s reprehensible behavior as a relationship issue:
Now I didn’t put labels on this before. I just wanted to get the facts out [*the couple gave contradicting stories, but remember, Sonja admitted being physically violent on numerous occasions, so much so that Lawrence has hidden from her]. Let me put some labels on this now. [To Lawrence]: What you’re doing is abuse. It is domestic violence. It is physical abuse. Mentally, emotionally and physically, it is abuse. Just what you have admitted to is abuse. There is no question about it.
And you say, ‘Well, what about all of what she does?’ That’s a relationship issue. When we’re talkin’ here, we have abuse issues and then we have relationship issues. You say, ‘Well, why can she do it and it’s okay, but I can’t and it’s abuse? She does it—no problem. I do it and I’m an abuser. It doesn’t seem right.’ There is an imbalance of power here. You are bigger. You are stronger. [To Sonja]: What you’re doing, you should not be doing. That’s a relationship issue.
Wrong, Dr Phil. Sonja’s behavior is domestic violence, too. It is equally abusive and just as wrong. It doesn’t matter that she’s physically smaller than Lawrence.
Dr Phil then tries to put words in Lawrence’s sister’s mouth, Krishina, by saying, “Isn’t it true you’re afraid of your brother?” (27:33). She corrects him and Dr Phil is condescending toward her, which seems fitting, if not ironic, since the topics are power imbalances and abuse. Check out the look on Sonja’s face when Krishina describes both partners as “bullish.” Priceless. Dr Phil continues to beat the “power imbalance” drum by citing their difference in physique again. Um, that’s not a power imbalance, Dr Phil; it’s a body size difference. It’s not the same thing.
There is a struggle for power in Sonja’s and Lawrence’s relationship, but it’s not what Dr Phil thinks.
Sonja seems to want absolute control of her husband and the relationship. She uses verbal and physical violence and the kids to try to exert her power over her husband. Lawrence doesn’t want to be controlled and seems to fight back in unhealthy ways and, yet, Lawrence is portrayed as the abusive villain in this situation.
I think it’s healthy for a person to push back against behavior like Sonja’s. If she got in my face the way she does to Lawrence, I’d tell her to back off and knock it off. So, if I, as a woman, said, “Back off!” and shoved Sonja in retaliation to her shoving me, would it be abuse because we’re both women or would it be a “relationship issue” because we’re both women? Would I be the abuser if I’m a couple of inches taller than Sonja? What if she’s taller and heavier than me? How would Dr Phil define that?
Dr Phil tries to explain the difference between abuse issues and “relationship issues”(28:37):
Lawrence needs some help and Sonja needs some help. We are at two different levels here. Because of the imbalance of power, what a man does in a relationship to impose his will can be an abuse of power and control. What a woman does in a relationship is a relationship issue. It is not an abuse issue here.
[To Sonja]: You may be too controlling. You may be one of those people who likes to get in somebody’s face and get it to a point that may not be the best problem-solving skills that you could use. And I want to give you some different coping skills. [To Lawrence]: But she does not have the ability to isolate you and exercise power and control over you. And you do have that ability with her. Do you get the distinction? [Lawrence tries to respond, but Dr Phil talks over him.] We have to hold ourselves to a different standard, Lawrence. Do you agree or disagree, Lawrence?
In the above statement, Dr Phil unequivocally states there is a different set of rules for men and women when it comes to abuse. Dr Phil appears to believe that it’s not abuse when a woman tries to impose her will through physical force and verbal abuse, but it is when a man does the same exact thing. It wouldn’t be surprising if the average home viewer interpreted Dr Phil’s postion to mean that it’s acceptable for women to be violent and emotionally abusive toward men, that men cannot be the targets of abuse because they’re men and, therefore, physically stronger and that women cannot be guilty of abuse even when they admit to physically assaulting a man. The most Dr Phil seems willing to acknowledge is that Sonja’s behavior is inappropriate, which is a gross understatement and just plain wrong.
Lawrence tries to answer Dr Phil’s rhetorical question (29:35):
I do agree to a certain extent, but I think what happens is I tend to back down. Maybe I’m not going about it the right way, being the father figure in the house, but in reality, I find myself running away from Sonja 99% of the time. Running to the car, sleeping in the car, you know, just trying to get away from the arguments.
Sonja interjects:
The car is actually his tool to isolate me. He takes the car numerous times and leaves me with nothing.
No, Sonja. The car is where Lawrence goes to escape from you. If he were using the car to isolate you, he would lock you in it and throw away the key.
Dr Phil and Sonja then reveal that Lawrence has a gambling problem (scratch tickets and online poker). Lawrence admits that he has a problem, says he uses gambling as an escape from Sonja and as a cry for help that he wants her to hear. This is duly ignored by both Dr Phil and Sonja, lest we forget who the one and only victim is here.
Sue Else, President of the National Network to End Domestic Violence, chimes in.
In the next segment (32:21), Dr Phil brings on Sue Else, president of the National Network to End Domestic Violence. She rattles off a list of Lawrence’s alleged abusive behaviors (remember, Lawrence flatly denies Sonja’s rape allegation and many of her other claims), observes that his violent behavior is escalating and becoming more severe and that it makes Sue fearful.
Ms Else then trots out the old chestnut, “Love does not equal fear.” Ms Else ignores the fact that Lawrence stated, more than once, that he is afraid of his wife and has hidden from her, which Sonja herself confirmed as true. Ms Else does not address this inconvenient fact nor does she address Sonja’s own admitted violent and abusive behavior. Else’s fear is exclusively for Sonja and herself.
Dr Phil jumps in (33:22) to remind us that, while Sonja’s behavior is “inappropriate,” it’s still just a relationship issue; not abuse:
[To Lawrence]: What’s happening with you is different because of the imbalance of power and I’m trying to convince you of that, but I’m getting nowhere. I can see that I’m getting nowhere. This situation needs a hero and you’re the best candidate here. I’m just trying to tell you, just man-to-man, that what you’re doing is not right.
Lawrence: I do need need a lot of help. That’s why I’m here.
Dr Phil: Are you acknowledging anything I’m saying? I mean you blame this on her. You even say your daughter is smart and knows how to push your button, but it can’t ber fault. It can’t be your son’s fault. It can’t be your wife’s fault. The only person you control is you. And you have power that you have to manage in a relationship. And if you abuse the power, you abuse the relationship and everybody in it. That’s what I’m trying to tell you, you have to be better.
[Lawrence asks Dr Phil what he needs to do.] You have to be willing to say, ‘I will never put my hands on my wife or children in anger again ever no matter what. That’s where you start, right there. You just don’t ever. Just say, ‘I will not accept that from myself, character-wise. I am a better man than that. I will not do that.’ [To Sonja]: Do you get that? And you should not settle for that for yourself or for your children. [Lawrence should not accept or tolerate that from Sonja either, but Dr Phil is selectively mute on this counterpoint.]
Dr Phil perpetuates a dangerous double-standard.
Dr Phil states that abuse in a relationship is an absolute deal-breaker (35:44). I agree. However, Sonja’s behavior is also abuse. It is not a relationship issue—whatever that is, although, from what I can tell, it appears to be double-speak for “abuse” when the woman is the perpetrator. He tells Lawrence he needs to be the “hero” by deciding if “[he] wants to be happy or if [he] wants to be right” and that [he] needs to “rise above it.” Essentially, Dr Phil is advocating that Lawrence tolerate and not react to Sonja’s abuse. He advises Lawrence to not only accept her abuse, but to accept it unquestioningly and unflinchingly.
Now, imagine Dr Phil giving the same prescription to Sonja. It’s unthinkable and it’s unconscionable that he basically tells Lawrence it’s his job, his responsibility, to rise above Sonja’s abuse and take it. Wrong, wrong, wrong. It’s Lawrence’s job to set healthy boundaries with Sonja for both himself and his children. If she continues to abuse him and drag the children into it, he needs to rise above it by removing himself and his children from an unhealthy situation instead of sinking into a mutual race to the bottom.
*Please note: Lawrence asks for help and guidance several times throughout the episode. He admits his behavior is wrong. Sonja never really admits her behavior is wrong. She says she wants help. What she really wants is help “fixing” Lawrence because, naturally, her “relationship issues” are Lawrence’s fault. She doesn’t need to change anything about her behavior.
Dr Phil enables Sonja’s scapegoating of Lawrence by telling her that she just needs some better “problem-solving skills” and “coping mechanisms.” It’s okay for her to blame Lawrence for her bad behavior, but not the other way around. Furthermore, while Lawrence states that Sonja provokes him and that he allows her to push his buttons, he acknowledges that it’s wrong when he responds physically. Sonja just makes excuses for her behavior and takes no responsibility for her own actions and Dr Phil enables her. The twisting of reality and propaganda that Dr Phil perpetrates in this 42-minute episode is staggering.
What Dr Phil should have said.
Abuse is wrong. Initiating abuse is wrong and responding to abuse with more abuse is wrong. You both have issues.
Sonja, you’re no innocent victim. I don’t care if Lawrence isn’t giving you his undivided attention or obeying all of your commands. You have no right to lay your hands on him in violence nor do you have the right to destroy his property.
Quit putting your kids in the middle. Quit undermining Lawrence’s mutual authority as a parent and take responsibility for your own abusive behavior. Just because Lawrence married you does not mean you own him or have the right to control him. That is an unreasonable expectation.
Lawrence, you may need to accept the fact that your wife has control issues and she may not be able to change. She won’t even admit she has a problem, which is the first step in the change process. You have a right to be an autonomous being. You have a right to equal input on how your children are raised. You have a right to respect, love and affection. You may need to realize that your wife just wants a submissive lackey even as she grows to resent you for being a submissive lackey.
You also have a right to defend yourself, but let’s face it, as a man, if you defend yourself from physical attacks by a woman, even to just push her away so you can escape, you might get arrested. Therefore, continuing to live with a violent woman increases your risk of being incarcerated, whether you retaliate with force or not.
Don’t take your frustation with your wife out on your kids. One of the parents needs to be a grown-up and act responsibly and, given Sonja’s apparent inability to do so, you’re going to have to be the grown-up. You may need to get a good divorce attorney who understands high-conflict cases and sign those divorce papers your wife uses to control you by playing on your fear of abandonment or some unfounded sense of obligation or commitment.
Jan Brown, founder of the Domestic Abuse Helpline for Men and Women, posted an article about this Dr Phil episode on the DAHM Blog that includes responses from Dr Phil’s fans on his own forum, many of which express their disappointment in the way he dealt with this couple.
Lawrence, if you’re reading this, your wife’s behavior is also abuse and you deserve help and support; not one-sided condemnation. You ARE better than that and you do need to hold yourself to a higher standard because, clearly, no one is going to hold your wife to a higher standard and your kids need at least one healthy, functioning parent.
Shrink4Men Coaching and Consulting Services:
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96 Responses to “Dr Phil and Domestic Violence: He Just Doesn’t Get It”
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Power imbalance doesn’t come from physical size. Canada is physically larger than the US. India has more people. Yet, I would say the US is capable of bullying around both nations, and the opposite is not true.
The power imbalance comes from what “weapons” one has available and one’s willingness to use it. What Dr. Phil is doing in these episodes is drawing out this imbalance. He is leaving certain tools in play for women, while taking them out of play for men.
I will agree that in a “no holds barred” atmosphere the fact that men are typically stronger than women represents a power disparity, and men have taken advantage of this through history. But in a world where if a man touches a woman it’s an arrestable offense, but when a woman touches a man it’s a “relationship issue,” that imbalance goes out the window.
For many men, physical violence is completely off the table as any kind of tool. They wouldn’t even consider it. And the women know it.
What you’ve described goes to the definition of “threat.”
Threat = Intent x Capability If either is zero, there is no threat.
What we see here is a situation in which the woman is automatically assumed to have little or no intent and her capability to cause harm is understated and/or minimized as described above when compared to a man. It can’t be abuse (threat) because women just don’t do those things. Males are typically assumed to have both high intent and high capability to cause harm.
Not fair or accurate but sadly, true.
JohnMcG, you are exactly right about there being different kinds of power. I think psychological force is far more frightening than physical because it can cause you to buy into a belief system in which you believe you are bad, wrong and have no choice. This ultimately can have the effect of causing a person to keep himself trapped in an unhealthy, abusive relationship for years. It’s heartbreaking to see men and women who believe the lies of their abusers and keep themselves locked in a cage, which only they can free themselves from.
Yes they do know that 99% of us won’t lift a finger in the face of the shoving,twisting, slapping…whatever. Afraid of a woman? F%^& no!!! Only afraid of how low I will sink in my self-respect for taking it. My wife knew I would not touch her, and therefore felt free to croos ALL boundaries. Powerless, idiotic wife feels power through my inaction. The out of control harpie controls her world by dominating mine.
With respect to their son, if the perceptions aren’t somehow corrected, a child can carry a totally wrong idea a lifetime. My parents were both alcoholics. My father was a fairly high functioning one, my mother, not so much. I remember as a child of less than 5 in the early 60s many loud arguments and my mother locking herself in the car so my father couldn’t go to work. The worst incident I recall is waking up one night and coming out of my bedroom to see my father and mother locked in a violent struggle in the bathroom. I remember my father and I had planned to go camping. As I wathced them thrash around the bathroom, I looked at my father and shouted, “I am not going camping with you!” and ran beak into my bedroom. It was the most forecful thing I could muster. My father moved to his parents shortly after and he got custody of me with visitation by my mother.
Oddly, I don’t remember my parents ever really trashing each other afterward. The only thing I remember my father saying once was he never cheated on my mother while he was away on business trips and alluded my mother had. The only thing I remember my mother saying was when I told her he was out of town on a business trip, she said, “That was the story of my life. He was never there when I really needed him.” He was gone a lot.
When I was in high school, my grandmother with whom my father and I moved in with after the divorce so someone could look after me while he was on the roas, showed me a letter written to her by my mother. The lette thanked my grandmother for raising me well and not turning me against her. It explained she had been fighting alcholol for years. My mother claimed to have gone through rehab and hoped to re-establish a relationship with me. My mother’s efforts to deal with it were unsuccessful and she died of an apparent accidental overdose of Placidyls and alcohol. I often wondered why my grandmother chose to keep the letter and show it to me. While she seldom talked about my mother, it was obvious she didn’t like my mother at that point. She could have easily destroyed the letter and not said anything.
After reading the letter and reconstructing the memories, I was able to see my father in a different light. He wasn’t abusing my mother, he was trying to contain her while protecting me and himself as best he could.
It seems the son has a pretty level head given the circumstances and is at least willing to divide the responsibliity. I hope he comes out of this ok. The parents have choices, he doesn’t have many.
Dear Mellaril:
I think your grandmother did it to be kind to you so that you didn’t blame yourself for it in anyway, and she wanted you to know that your mother loved you as much as she “could”. Not everything a Cluster B does is bad or evil. It is all a matter of degree.
I watched a different couple on Dr. Phil once. She was a High Conflict/Personality disordered female who was practicing parental alienation and at times denying the father visitation. Dr. Phil told the man that there was nothing he could do about it except go to court. He basically told the guy to be her emotional doormat.
Dr. Phil could have had a lot better show if he had done a show on the corrupt, gender bias “Family Courts” and how they discriminate against men.
I watched this show and it was a train wreck. My husband wants to know when the woman is going to be held accountable for her abuse. I said not the little woman on the Dr. Phil show. It would be obvious to anyone who has common sense that the woman was highly invested in this abusive relationship as well. Deux de Folies! My French Canadian husband stated that. It means two crazy people going at it.
I watch Dr. Phil to study his narcissism and psychopathic preying for common patterns and classic ways on how it is done. He has a soft spot for the Cluster B woman and yet he claims to be manipulation prone! His Savior and Rescuing Syndromes are two of his grandiose narcissism patterns. His optimism will get people killed because it isn’t realistic. I am certain he has a way to not be held accountable for that as well in his mind. Golly! They didn’t listen to me and didn’t do it right. He is a master manipulator and has more spins than a toy top. Even a toy top loses steam. He never does because psychopathic people have strengths that normal people don’t. He is full of jealousy and anger, and we all know how dangerous those two can be in the conjunction with his other traits and past history.
His wife fits the profile of someone who stays with his kind. She has Histrionic traits and is excessively mothering and cries at the drop of a hat. Talk about going off the deep end of the ocean in two seconds flat! Even old Phil looks perplexed at her behavior and yet he holds degrees in Psychology. Denial is a wonderful thing for him; yet he attacks people who are in it with a death grip and wields his sledge hammer demanding that if it isn’t stopped immediately then I will have to go into predator mode. She is shallow, too focused on her looks and has Dependency problems. He is her proverbial knight in shining armor. He picked her because she is as naive and gullible as they make them and he needs her to continually feed his narcissism. She needs him because she can’t make it on her own and needs a Narcissist to protect her fragile self esteem and make her insecurities all go away like Daddy never could. That dynamic gives me the creeps. Nobody normal wants to sleep with Daddy! Talk about playing off each others’ neurosis and living in the land of distortion. It’s showtime!
He serves as an excellent example of what poor and no insight is in narcissism as well as what a malignant grandiose sense of entitlement is and how to get away with it all.
He has snowed his wife left, right and center since the time they met. Oprah is another nightmare who I believe is an unmitigated fool. The DSM needs a category for that one all on it’s own!
I called the California Licensing Board to file a complaint as a good citizen on Dr. Phil for dangerous practices and to tell them that the ethics course he had to take went in one ear and out the other. They don’t deal with him because he is considered a Media Psychologist. Another slick move by Dr. Phil. His history is rich with them.
B Experienced, being a statistically minded person myself I was trying to find a statistical or demographic reason to explain it, but I think you really nailed it.
Dr. Phil = narcissist seeking a market to sell what they want not what they need in return for the adulation he needs and all the reaffirmation he craves, plus a financial killing while at it.
market = largely unhappy people (work, don’t work / personality-disordered, or not … doesn’t really matter you can be unhappy and looking for someone else to blame either way) who seek an articulate, easy to digest affirmation that yes, someone else really IS to blame for their own problems, it’s exactly the person you thought it was, and you can feel enlightened and superior for it for having been enlightened by Dr. Phil.
Sweet deal. Payoffs for everyone involved.
His Motto is “IT IS ALL ABOUT ME” Just watch how he comes out on top at the end of every show or will make sure it appears to. When it doesn’t you never hear about it again. It is a game that narcissists play called Teeter Totter.
Here’s the big con. He “largely makes” sense most of the time and cleverly blends the truth in with the lies. It keeps people coming back and it is harder to defend yourself because of how he sets up the power play with the way he presents the truth.
He is very good at spotting people’s weaknesses and defenses and chipping away at ones that aren’t pathological. What does that tell you?
I think it is interesting as well that you take the Pythagoras approach to problems.
There was a time when i stayed with 2 very dear friends of mine for 2 months while i was between places. it was such a strange dynamic because both of these people – husband and wife – were wonderful people to me, and to their other friends. but let me tell you they were absolutely HORRIBLE to each other. every single day there was a fight about something. every day their 5 kids got to watch them bicker, argue, yell scream, voice obscenities and become so degrading i was embarrassed for them, for their kids (who were traumatized every single time this happened, as i watched them stare straight at the ground). most of the extreme abusive behavior can from the mother. good god, the things she would come up with, the derogatory comments, the baseless accusations, and the physical violence all stemmed from her. my male friend – the husband/father – was built like a fireplug, about 5′-5″ tall, 180, and naturally built. he would come to work with his lip busted open, his eyes black and blue, while she never had a scratch on her. he’d try to fend her off for as long as he could. the few times the police got called, guess who went to jail…? that’s right, he did.
this relationship was so unhealthy, had so many bizarre layers to it. she’d accuse him of infidelity, but i knew him for 5 years and he’d NEVER cheat on his wife. nobody except for her could ever see him cheating on his wife. but she had it in her head that he did, or would, or is gonna sometime in the very near future. he and i would go out to a hockey game, baseball game, whatever and she’d be blowing up his phone like crazy, demanding to know where he is, even tho its obvious from the background noise that we’re at the game. those times when we went somewhere else, we had little chance but to lie to her simply because we wanted to go play pool, but she couldn’t bear the thought of us being somewhere where she couldn’t control him and us. we went to play pool, that’s it. but as time went by, he developed a need (self-preservation) to simply go out and have some fun, but the ONLY way he could do it was by lying to her. the few times she found out gave her justification for her earlier abusiveness, thereby giving her justification for what she’s about to do, which is explode and abuse all over again. trust me, it was quite a sight to experience and be a part of. i even tried to mediate a discussion between them, and the finger pointing from both sides, and the justification of their own actions by pointing the finger at the other person, was truly one of those “dear diary” moments in my life, an experience that sticks in my mind and soul. how could both of these people be so good in so many ways and be so rotten to each other. but he was soooo much less the perpetrator and much more the victim. and why he stayed is beyond me. sometimes love is not only blind, but deaf and dumb too. both sides should have been ashamed of themselves for how they conducted themselves in private and especially in front of their kids. both sides should be ashamed for the lack of personal accountability for their own happiness, and for the success – or in this instance complete failure – of their marriage. but no… it was always more of the same old stuff. emotional leftovers gone bad…
yep… their justification for being married was because they had to stay together for the children’s sake. never mind the horrors the kids experienced on an almost daily basis.
i’m not friends with them anymore. for as much as i loved both of them as friends, hoped and prayed that they’d find the light… in the end it was more than i could take and/or be a part of, either directly or indirectly.
so… i wonder what Dr. Phil would have to say about their marriage…?
I know exactly what you are talking about freedom. Both sides being great people and towards other people…but towards each other it would always go nuclear in the span of 2 minutes.
I lived that. Exactly how you described it. I had to lie to just get 2 hours of “me” time.
Regarding the Dr. Phil thing, I too only wanted to “get away”. I was blocked, prevented from leaving, and ultimately had to physically push my way out. I never hit. I never wanted to fight in front of the kids.
I was constantly being accused of having or planning to have a mistress. I was accused of all kind of things all the time. I was called names, torn down, and even kicked in the jaw one time. I have had clothes destroyed (shirts).
So here I am and I am being told that I am the bad one and that she is the one who is afraid and walking on egg shells…the most poignant part of this article was when it was mentioned that if she was so scared, why does she start the arguments and the pushing and preventing of leaving the house or the scene? Wouldnt she be too scared to initiate the conflict if that were the case?
Its been a couple of months now and I am still trying to figure out how I let all this happen to me. I try to figure out what I did wrong and what I did to make her so angry all the time. I remember the kids crying and telling her to stop as I was trying to leave the situation after one of her episodes. Get this, she told the kids that I was the one who starts everything and that I am the one at fault.
I dont know if I love her still (because I am still dwelling on how and why I disapointed her) or if I am going through post traumatic stress thing. Yes, I have been told that I will be replaced by someone much better. She is wicked attractive so I know she is probably correct with regard to that. I frankly dont care anymore and little by little each day gets better and better. I cant help but wonder if my reactions could have been tempered better though….
Like many here, I’m concerned for both fairness and what kind of message this sends to the children of the couple. One of the warning signs of abusive men is someone who hits/throws things in anger. The reasoning being, if they are hitting/throwing things, they may move onto getting violent against people. She’s admitted to hitting him/destroying property. The fact that she’s smaller doesn’t make it ok.
Following “Dr.” Phil’s reasoning, we should just let kids hit people. After all, they’re smaller than the adults, so what harm can they do? Instead, ideally, children are taught not to hit people and to “use your words”. IMO, it’s no different for this couple. They should be able to resolve differences without EITHER of them getting physical. Excusing the mother’s behavior based on the fact that she’s smaller does a disservice to these children. It shows them that being manipulative and claiming victim status will accomplish more for them than learning reasonable conflict resolution and negotiation skills. Growing up in a home with a dynamic like that, I can say it leaves one ill prepared for the world where conflict resolution and negotiation are required on a regular basis. It’s something which can be learned, but it takes longer than if one learns it growing up.
It just occurred to me that the picture of Oprah shaving Dr. Phil’s mustache is symbolic of castration. Paging Dr. Freud….
Scanned the posts above and noticed that Dr. T. remarked on the castration symbolism three hours before I did. Even though I observed it independently, you beat me to it, Dr. T. I am not worthy….
You’re worthy, Verbal. Actually, I purposefully chose that photo for this exact reason.
Dr. Phil: Sensationalized self-help. He’s Jerry Springer with a community college Psychology diploma.
Dear Dr. T:
Yes,I stay away from people who are scary when I can,and I don’t provoke them as all normal people do. I lived with people who had BPD and psychopathy. My sister had Schizophrenia as well as brain damage with it. I learned how to live in a criminally insane psychiatric setting and survive called home, and at the same defuse and cope as best as I could being a non disordered person while protecting and helping another sibling who had Schizophrenia as well. My sister had it out for me most of the time. I was one of her favorite targets. I was everything she wasn’t and never could be. She irrationally hated me; yet I treated her with respect and never hurt her one time!
I had to keep my head on straight and prevent collateral damage too. The Cluster B’s will take their anger out on others by getting in the car and raging or picking fights with others and getting homicidal with them to displace the anger they have with you. I saw that early on. I have a conscience, care for innocent people, and I held myself accountable for not setting off that chain reaction just to get a word in to hurt them or prove a point. I would have been selfish,highly irresponsible and insane myself because I had that insight to begin with. We are all responsible for the words we choose because they are powerful. That is how to not get yourself or someone else killed. I kept my power at the same time by saying what I needed to in my own head to validate what I knew and then kept going. If you speak in a normal tone, and they attack you, don’t engage, back off and walk away.
You are entitled to use force for force by law with the sudden impulsive physical attacks that can be common in the Cluster B’s no matter who is involved. They are common even if you say nothing or do nothing wrong. It is their hypersensitivity, and or inferiority problems not yours. You have the right to defend your body, mind and mental health under our laws. Sometimes you have to push them off because they are hyper reactive and have no impulse control because of their psychopathic traits. They can get in your face instantly, disregard your rights even after you said no and have warned them. They have boundaries that they can easily dismantle in seconds. They love to literally get you in tight spaces to get you physically trapped. Think predator.
I cannot express the following enough. If you have to live with a Cluster B, go to your nearest POLICE STATION and tell them what is going on. Report this person to your family doctor as well because they are a danger to your health. Go to the nearest hospital and talk to a psychiatrist and get accurate knowledge on the Mental Health Laws in your State as well as Federal ones. If this person defends the Cluster B, leave. Do not get hostile, thank them for their time and find one who will see through the Cluster B and has a realistic clinical picture. You are proving that you are the one who is mentally balanced, in control of your emotions, are pro socially inclined, maturely problem solving and that you are not antagonistic. This is highly important both legally and clinically for you to do for yourself . It is a way to keep yourself sane,calm and to get a safety net in place as well. You have to plan ahead with the Cluster B’s. I have seen people get accused of having a PD trait by clinicians because they failed to plan ahead when they simply didn’t know what to do or were too afraid to. I have, also, known people who were accused of having BPD traits because they had PTSD from the Cluster B because they weren’t over it all and had anger and wanted justice. Be careful who you chose as a clinician if you seek help. Get out immediately if the above aren’t true and happen. You want to avoid being re victimized at all costs. The law is great for that too at times. Be prepared.
Your goal is to get them admitted to a psyche hospital and start a pattern so that you will have proof and longer islands of peace until you get out. You are gaining power this way that is valid, turning the scale of justice towards yourself and putting the accountability back on the abuser as well as exposing their craziness.
If you have defended yourself by pushing one off you physically, tell the police about it. Don’t wait for the Cluster B to accuse you of it or for the law to find out another way. That doesn’t work in your favor. Ask them to put it in writing that you spoke to them and that you were given legal interpretation of the law on what constitutes force for force according to the law, and that your intention is to live in peace and that you are doing all you can not to provoke this person and get out of the relationship. Tell them that you are only going to use legal means to deal with the problems that arise and that you will notify them each time it happens up until you have another place to live. You have to tell them what you fear and the way you are dealing with it as well. Discuss with them what you believe will not work with the person you are living with and ask for legal means of dealing with it. You have to be sure that everybody is on the same page and that you are certain of the legal advice and action to take.
I called the police on a next door neighbor a few years ago. I knew she was a Cluster B. I told them what force I would use and they said that I had the legal right to do it and to defend my daughter as well. She was peeking in my windows in broad daylight and carried a knife. She was telling me what good friends “we” were and how much “she” liked my daughter. None of it was true. It turned out that she was arrested for substance abuse many times and was no stranger to the police.I didn’t mess around. I told them about my education and that I had 30 years of studying and applying it to the Cluster B’s. She had severe attachment problems and I had reason to fear because of her violent past history and gross lack of boundaries with no regard for the law. I told them how she sat in her yard next door and stared in my kitchen window up to 5 hours at a time to see me and hopefully get one of her needs met as well. My neighbor and I noticed that. I told them that I closed that blind and used another door even though I was in the right. Don’t be irrational and refuse to use alternatives. I gave them a run down on the Cluster B’s as well as websites run by professionals who didn’t defend them. I went over every imaginable case scenario that I thought could happen. It is a whole different ball game when you approach the police first. Prevention is the key. People who have good intentions and/or can admit wrong doing are the ones who call up the police to come over or go to them and ask if they are dealing with the matter legally. The ones who make false allegations on others usually don’t have patterns of mature problem solving within the context of the law, poor reputations, known to be crazy someway and don’t want their past exposed. Dig around. If you can afford a competent attorney in this field, do it.
Get out of the relationship ASAP and untangle the hooks that kept you in it. You are not responsible for the manipulation when you are unaware of it. However, if you go back and play into it or excuse it then it is your fault because you knew better. The abused have responsibilities as well. If you think you are going to save and/or change someone with psychopathic traits you think too highly of yourself. There is a lot of bad biochemistry going on and brain structural problems in some that you can’t do anything about. Besides that point, they will never be fully invested into changing themselves anyway.They either have fragile or grandiose narcissism and neither are good candidates for change. Once they get sympathy, you become the bad person and the manipulation plays out all the way from therapists to the court room. Even if they don’t manipulate, people pity them and your pain gets grossly diminished. Their therapist is all too concerned with their healing and doesn’t have your best interest in mind. It is all sickening and pathetic because too much balance is lost and destroyed in the systems already.
If you know that you will set them off and do it, then you are guilty of provocation under the law as well if a chargeable offense occurs. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Many clinicians and people believe the Cluster B has changed because you learn not to push their buttons. In reality you are the one changing not the Cluster B. They have made no changes in themselves and have fooled others yet again! Viola! Many psychologists will encourage you to vent your feelings. They are naive. You can’t reason with their insanity or change it. Venting starts the whole vicious cycle again. If you have a therapist that says that or believes they can “fully” change get out and find one who is risk adverse and has competent, “current”, empirically supported clinical knowledge of the Cluster B’s. In order words someone who is not going to put you in harms way and has your own best interest in mind and doesn’t have pathological sympathy and/or empathy for them.
I cannot reinforce the above enough. Even if they do change their bad behavior it is extremely slow and it is full of regressions because of the level of their narcissism. They tend to gravitate towards people who enable them when therapy gets too close to home and have the accuracy of what the therapist says undone that way. They like to keep a trait or two anyway for just in case purposes. This especially happens when they can drum up unconditional support when it isn’t called for. They seek and find pathological love bombing. They become okay and don’t “feel” the need to look at themselves anymore or own their part or help clean up the mess they created.
This “doctor” is nothing more than an overpaid charlatan echoing whatever the corporate masters tell him will ensure female viewership remains high.
Look into the “doctor’s” background: hasn’t his wife left him and his son married to an ex-porn star or something?
ANY relationship, for it to be successful, requires both the man and woman to acknowledge how insidious and subtle shows like Phil and Oprah (PBUH) can undermine a marriage/relationship.
“This “doctor” is nothing more than an overpaid charlatan echoing whatever the corporate masters tell him will ensure female viewership remains high.”
Lovecraft… that just might the most accurate thing said in this entire thread… gotta make sure the ratings are there. if your demographic is primarily women, then its important to maintain the viewership, otherwise… there’s no need for a program.
brilliant!!!