Judge Diane E. Gibbons Orders ThePsychoExWife.com Shut Down: What Would You Do?
ThePsychoExWife.com (PEW), like Shrink4Men, is another resource for people trying to cope with high-conflict and/or abusive personality disordered exes and partners. At least, it used to be.
In early June 2011, family court Judge Diane E. Gibbons of Bucks County, Pennsylvania ordered the owner of PEW to shut the site down.
The owner of the website, Anthony Morelli, had been anonymous and had intended to remain the anonymous publisher of PEW. That is until his eponymous ex-wife, Allison Morelli, discovered the website when she was looking for information about child custody and PEW appeared in her search results.
Apparently, as she read through the site, she recognized emails that she’d sent to her ex and different court orders that Morelli and his new partner, who operates the site with him, included in blog posts (with names and other identifying information removed).
That’s when the Crazy hit the fan.
Who is Anthony Morelli?
He’s a man, like many of you who frequent Shrink4Men, who married and divorced a woman he now suspects is an undiagnosed borderline and active alcoholic. He’s neither a psychologist nor a related mental health professional. He’s a guy, again, just like many of you, who was searching for answers regarding his ex-wife’s abusive and chaotic behaviors, and came across the diagnostic criteria for BPD (borderline personality disorder) and had a light bulb moment.
Mr Morelli began PEW in 2007 as a way to connect with others who were also struggling with high-conflict, abusive exes. Oftentimes, the tone of the articles is snarky and neither Morelli nor his partner mince words when describing the antics of Ms Morelli.
It should come as no surprise that if you’re continuously harangued, goaded and attacked by an abusive ex and have to stand by and helplessly watch your ex, enabled by an equally dysfunctional family court system, alienate and harm your children, you’re eventually going to become angry and have some unkind things to say about said ex.
I believe this is what happened with Mr Morelli and why he chose to blog his frustration anonymously.
One of the things abusive bullies, high-conflict people (HCP) — whatever you want to refer to them as — fear most is exposure. They will fight tooth and nail against having their misbehavior exposed. These types equally fear the loss of control. PEW probably represents both fears for Ms Morelli; exposure and loss of control.
Imagine the rage if your abusive ex, wife or girlfriend discovered that you read Shrink4Men and posting comments describing her toxic behavior here.
Kaboom.
Also no big surprise, Allison Morelli apparently went kaboom when she discovered her namesake blog. And what did Ms Morelli do after discovering PEW?
Did she swallow the lump in her throat and accept that she is no longer able to control her ex? Did she consider that she has also engaged in trashing her ex, but not anonymously, over the years? Did she decide to take her lumps like an adult and not involve the children in yet more pointless conflict that should have ended with the divorce?
Nope.
Apparently, it didn’t matter to Ms Morelli that PEW was anonymous and no one knew the identities of the parties involved. She was no doubt enraged that her ex dared to write about her abusive behaviors (including ongoing alcohol abuse in front of the children) that were directly affecting him and their children.
The only reason PEW is no longer anonymous and that people following this story know that Allison Morelli is PEW is because Ms Morelli, in what appears to be her blind desire to control her ex and portray herself as “the victim,” told anyone and everyone who would listen, that she is PEW — including her own children, in whose best interests she claims to be acting.
Ms Morelli brought her complaint regarding PEW to Judge Gibbons because she alleges the children are hurt by the existence of the website — blithely ignoring the fact that the only reason their children know about PEW is because she, their mother, told them about it.
If the existence of PEW hurts the children and the only reason the children know about PEW is because Ms Morelli told them, then it is Ms Morelli who is hurting the children.
Why would she tell their children about PEW if she was so concerned for their welfare?
Because she’s not concerned about her children’s welfare. She seems to have done what many a high-conflict person/abusive personality disordered individual/Golden Uterus do; she appears to be superimposing her own needs, feelings and wants onto the children. She is the one who is hurt, angry, outraged and humiliated (by her own behavior documented on PEW).
Ms Morelli brought their children into this mess she created in order to manipulate the family court judge into giving her what she wanted — the eradication of PEW. Ms Morelli seems to be using her children as tools to get her own way, to meet her need to control, oppress and suppress and she didn’t care if her children were hurt by it.
To further explain, a quote from CrazyBuster, Peppy about Golden Uteruses:
The golden uterus views mothering as a title rather than a relationship and a set of behaviors. Mothering requires selflessness at times. It requires sacrifice at times. It requires paying attention to the child and putting your time and energy into meeting their needs, which also requires seeing the child as a unique and separate individual from yourself, not a mirror of your own thoughts, feelings, and needs. A golden uterus mother fails at mothering and instead uses her title to extort things from others “in the name of the child.” Essentially, they use their offspring as a way to get their own needs met.
The children weren’t hurt by the existence of a website they knew nothing about until Ms Morelli told them. Ms Morelli was hurt by the existence of the website. Her children were hurt because she told them, probably in some self-serving attempt to villain-ize their father while gaining their sympathy.
In classic HCP fashion, she seems to be twisting the facts and donning the victim’s mantle. And, for someone who’s supposedly so concerned about PEW hurting the children, well, going on The Today Show, sure is a strange way to protect your privacy and children from a website you’re worried will cause you public humiliation.
Perhaps Ms Morelli thought if she could persuade Judge Gibbons to order Mr Morelli to shut down PEW that would be the end of it. Perhaps Ms Morelli thought she would be able to shut her ex up and do a victory lap around the courthouse. Perhaps she didn’t count on Mr Morelli fighting back.
In any event, her desire to control her ex and stop him from publishing an anonymous blog that documents her abusive behavior has blown up in her face. And now, the thing she was most afraid of, public exposure and humiliation, she has effectively brought upon herself.
In The Today Show segment, Dr Gail Salz plays armchair analyst and disapprovingly says:
“[Mr Morelli] may be right legally, but he’s not right, in terms of the family,” she told Matt Lauer. “Because at the end of the day, when a couple gets divorced you know the fallout for children. And the only way to try to help to be the healthiest for them is to preserve two good parents, even if they don’t want to be together. But it’s your job to help say to some degree, ‘Your mom’s an okay person and loves you.’ “
In response to Dr Salz’s misplaced judgment, Whenthescapegoatquits, a Shrink4Men community member, writes on her blog:
Frankly, I call bullshit on this one. When you’re dealing with a PDed [personality disordered] parent/spouse, all bets are off. Normal rules don’t apply. . . Basically, if you follow the rules this psychiatrist is suggesting with a PDed person, you get parental alienation . . .
I’ve been in therapy for over 2 years now trying to undo the abuse and crap I was put through by my mother. I found out from my dad’s partner that he was really upset about some of what was going on, but was afraid to say anything because of the conventional wisdom, don’t talk against the other parent. While this may be true in cases with psychologically healthy parents, it’s dangerous when dealing with PDed parents. The psychiatric and psychological profession needs to stop enabling these abusers this way.
You don’t know what you don’t know.
For those of you fortunate souls who’ve yet to deal with a high-conflict narcissist, borderline, histrionic, what have you, you simply have no idea what it’s like. No, really, you don’t.
Normal rules of engagement do not apply. Normal codes of conduct, consideration and decency do not apply. These are individuals with little to no empathy (or very selective empathy reserved exclusively for themselves and those whom they are currently splitting white), no conscience and no personal accountability nor responsibility. Everything that goes wrong in their lives is always the fault of someone else. They’re never to blame for their actions and poor choices.
They victimize others without batting and eye and then wail like infants who’ve had boiling water poured on them if anyone dares hold them accountable. They do not play fair and there’s no depth too low for them to sink in their efforts to retain control over everyone in their sphere.
They will light your house on fire and then blame you. They will tell you that you forced them to pour the gasoline and strike the match because you didn’t respond to one of their text messages quickly enough. Even their own children are not exempt from their dark natures.
These are schoolyard bullies/mean girls in adult bodies. Ironically, when anyone tries to hold them accountable for their bullying and other misdeeds, they’re incredibly masterful at flipping the situation and portraying the person they’ve been victimizing as the abusive jerk.
When others try to implement healthy, protective boundaries, these people typically accuse their targets of “trying to control them.” When you try to hold these people accountable for their behaviors, they flip the situation (DARVO) and accuse you of abusing them.
These people exist. Believe it.
Now, what about the children?
It’s unclear if the children have viewed the website or only know of its existence. Nevertheless, the PEW is out of the bag, so to speak.
My guess is that no matter how little or how much the children actually know, they know something isn’t right with their parents who continue to engage in conflict years after their divorce was finalized. Sometimes, the best thing you can do when dealing with an HCP is to “drop the rope.” Ultimately, the HCP’s goal is to keep you engaged in conflict with them — no matter what they say to the contrary.
Allison Morelli isn’t a unique case. She’s not a special, one of a kind snowflake. There are millions of abusive women just like her in the world, which is why sites like Shrink4Men and PEW have audiences. The psycho ex-wife or psycho ex-husband is an archetype; a universal motif.
It’s too bad that Ms Morelli’s feelings were hurt by PEW, but where’s the compassion and concern for people who have been damaged, and I do mean damaged, by their own psycho partners and exes and parents? It’s unlikely that Ms Morelli has even considered the harm and pain she’s inflicted over the years to her ex and children.
Furthermore, PEW is about so much more than Allison Morelli, just like Shrink4Men is more than its name implies. It’s about shining a light on the craziness and abuse many, many men and women endure in their relationships, be it with a current partner or an ex who has committed her or his life to making you as miserable as she or he is. It’s equally unlikely that Ms Morelli, in her myopic focus on her feeelings, has considered the thousands of people who get a tremendous amount of support by visiting PEW.
Then again, this is the same woman, who in a breathtaking act of selfishness, told their children about PEW.
Honestly, I don’t know what I’d do if I were in Mr Morelli’s shoes. When Shrink4Men was attacked by a gang of cyber-bullies last year, I considered closing down S4M. As many of you know, being in the crosshairs of HCPs on an obsessive mission to silence and destroy anyone who dares speak out against their abusive ways is a very unpleasant place to be.
Then I considered the lack of resources for men involved with abusive women and the sense of community and support shared by the men and women who frequent Shrink4Men and I fought back.
If I were Mr Morelli, I would fight tooth and nail to save PEW. Granted, I’m not writing about a specific individual with whom I was once in a relationship. Most of my writing is drawn from my professional experiences and the news. I’m also not a parent.
Nevertheless, I’d probably rethink the focus of the website and shift it away from the specific antics of Ms Morelli and focus more on abusive personalities as a group.* Not because of Ms Morelli’s destructive behavior and not because Mr Morelli doesn’t have the right to publish his experiences, but because of the children. Someone has to be the grown-up and Mr Morelli seems like the best bet in this scenario.
Ms Morelli will no doubt continue to bang her victim drum as long as PEW exists in its current form and the children have to live with this woman and her self-created drama — at least part-time. Furthermore, even if Mr Morelli wins his right to free speech, Judge Gibbons could give sole custody to Ms Morelli and deny Mr Morelli access. In either of these scenarios, Ms Morelli wins. Crafty.
Then again, if Mr Morelli can maintain shared custody, PEW will be just another grievance in a long line of badmouthing and other alienating behaviors Ms Morelli will most likely continue to perpetrate against Mr Morelli and their children. It also gives Ms Morelli the nugget or highly cherry picked “evidence” HCPs like to point to in order to show they’re the “victim” and you’re the jerk.
What would you do?
Would you do as Dr Salz and Judge Gibbons dictate and take down the site?
Would you fight it?
How would you explain the situation to your children?
For those of you interested in donating to the Save The Psycho Ex-Wife legal fund. Please follow this link.
[*Please note, Mr Morelli may have already been writing about abusive personalities in general. I don't know how much PEW content specifically relates to Ms Morelli.]
Shrink4Men Coaching and Consulting Services:
Dr Tara J. Palmatier provides confidential, fee-for-service, consultation/coaching services to help both men and women work through their relationship issues via telephone and/or Skype chat. Her practice combines practical advice, support, reality testing and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Shrink4Men Services page for professional inquiries.
74 Responses to “Judge Diane E. Gibbons Orders ThePsychoExWife.com Shut Down: What Would You Do?”
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I’m going to send him a note and offer to host the site from outside the US.
You’re a true gent, HappyMan.
I think the T.V. interview with Ms. Morelli says it all – if you pay very close attention to what she says.
With a woman like this the language is often very subtle. At one point she says on camera “I know they’ve (referring to her boys) told him (Mr. Morelli) it has a negative affect on me”
It is indeed all about “her”.
She had a choice – ignore the blog and get on with life, keep her boys out of the mess
OR
tell her boys about it, bring it into the public eye, and use her own children as pawns to get the opportunity to play the victim and manipulate those around her, including the judge involved with custody.
I caught that, too. That and the comment about how PEW “spins everything.”
Reminded me of something one of my clients’ wives says when he holds her accountable for her bad behavior, “The truth is mean.” Um, noooo, your behavior is mean.
Gosh … sounds eerily familiar.
I can attest to the fact that based on my own personal experience, everything stated in the article is dead on.
Hi OG!
Where have you been? Good to see you here!
Dr T
Spent most of the last few months watching my wife play the parental alienation game and pretty much helpless to counteract it without screwing mu kid’s head up even more than she has so assiduously managed to.
Now on my own.
There are no happy endings for relationships with these types … particularly where children are involved.
VERY sorry to read about your wife engaging in PAS. Does this mean you’re divorcing? How are you holding up? The community on the site and forum is here for support, if you want.
Oh, she’s been doing it for years … though I still don’t know whether it is always purposeful or just part of the negativity, constant complaining, etc. that come with the package.
I had a similar situation in that I wasn’t careful enough on the PC and she came across this site and identified my comments, which she then of course had to share with my daughter.
Now in all honesty, if I somehow came across a site where my wife had been anonymously commenting about her experiences with me, I think that if I was concerned at all I’d be discussing it with her however, can’t imagine why I’d ever show it to our kids.
The reality was that no one but her and I … and I doubt even her if she’d just come across the site by accident, e.g., from a “why am I a crazy bitch” web search … would ever know who either of us from the anonymous info I shared.
But of course to her mind, I’d dissed HER right across the web.
Which had never been my intent nor was a valid concern.
I guess just that whole “fear of exposure” thing.
Anyway, she and my daughter went away for a family vacation a few weeks back and a few days back, I was informed they were both staying where they are.
I wasn’t really surprised because I can usually read my wife’s moods … even if after so many years, I still can’t really understand her “thinking” process.
As to how I’m doing, I know this may sound weird to anyone who hasn’t dealt with BPD types before but, I’m doing okay. I feel sad about the situation with my daughter however came to realize this past year that this was the inevitable.
And on the other side, there is relief that my wife is gone.
The “golden uterus” reference in the article is quite accurate and these types will never let their children … who they feel they “own” … out of their clutches.
The father of Whenthescapegoatquits sounds pretty much like me.
But, I don’t see any solution. In my experience, the BPD parent won’t always say the demeaning, belittling stuff to the child when you’re in listening range. Or they may not say it directly to the child … they just make sure it is said, perhaps to another family member, while the kid is within hearing range.
Even if you do hear it, a response will likely end up in the raving temper tantrum we all know so well … which none of us want our kids to see … or you end exhibiting the same behavior as your crazy spouse, i.e., “bad mouthing” … or what anyone other than your spouse would call “telling the truth” … little miss BPD in front of the child. Which again won’t be helpful to the child, who of course won’t know what to think or who to believe.
After reading a lot of the comments here from men who are just discovering what type of a person they’ve ended up with, I have to say that there is probably few better real life illustrations … other than, for example, being born in Somalia, … of the old saying that “life isn’t fair” then ending up with a PD spouse.
I mean, after being tormented by one of them for years, I can certainly see some might be rather angered by losing their children to a monster … and then having to pay to support the monster’s ongoing screwing up of their child’s mind. And then still, if they want to have a relationship with their children, finding themselves dragged back into that monster’s world.
It goes against everything most of us were taught about “fairness”, etc. Best analogy I can think of is the investors being sentenced to a prison term because they made the mistake of trusting Bernie Madoff. And he being sent home with an apology from the court for the having been subjected to the accusations … and perhaps walking away with a little “bonus” to compensate for his “pain and suffering”.
A world where the con man gets rewarded and the “conned” punished doesn’t make much sense, or fit in with the notion of “fairness” most of us were given in our youth.
As callous as it may sound, the only solution I’ve come to is to pay the required child support, hope for the best for my daughter and leave it at that.
Trying to have a relationship with her now just keeps her mother in my life and for my own health and sanity, that has to stop.
It’s hard but, I can’t see any other way to go.
Even though it may be a tough pill to swallow, I think what you’ve written shows great wisdom, Old Guy. It will do no one any good to throw yourself on the pyre of your wife’s issues. Let her go or or continue to ingest her mother’s poison –out – either way, eventually your daughter won’t have a father. However, if you get out, heal and keep yourself healthy, you’ll be available and intact if your daughter comes round.
Thanks for the words of wisdom Old Guy and QuickSilver. I fear in the near future I will be where you are. Having to make that gut wrenching decision with young children. Its a pity how self imposed problem by a wife/ex-wife is still the fault of the husband/ex-husband. How screwed up is that.
My husband came to the same tragic decision with his daughters. Their mother is on her third husband and has kids with all three. Whenever her marriages fail, she cuts the ex out of the kids’ lives. At the beginning of our marriage, she said and did some outrageous things to keep my husband dancing to her tune. When she finally got his daughters to write letters disowning him, my husband just quit trying to engage. The youngest turns 18 this year. Child support will then cease and it will be up to them to reconnect.
I can’t say it doesn’t sometimes bother me that my husband let his ex get away with her antics… but the wiser side of me realizes that we’re probably still married because he did. We have learned that the ex never totally lets go of anyone, though. She contacted her oldest child’s father when it was convenient for her to exploit him. I imagine she will someday contact my husband again… or send his daughters his way. I think if my husband and I ever split up, she’d be on him like white on rice.
Anyway, I think my husband’s ex wife’s kids are in for a rude awakening when they finally realize their mother has used them to fight her personal battles all these years. My husband and I are reasonably happy, though, and I think that’s the best outcome in the long run. He’s healthy and sane and will be there if those girls ever wake up to reality.
Knotheadusc- Being a daughter who’s father chose the same path Old Guy what you suspect, his ex trying to send his daughter to contact him in some way is correct. Even to this day my mother tries to get me to get a hold of him, mostly through my half siblings but I don’t take part in it.
I do hope everyone gets connected again and gets it sorted out. I sure it’d be a big relief for your children to hear the other side of the story without it being translated through the crazy box.
“I can’t say it doesn’t sometimes bother me that my husband let his ex get away with her antics…”
Based on my own experience, there is absolutely nothing a person with the type of spouse we’re discussing can do to stop the “antics”.
The best you can do is remove yourself from the “antics” and the effect of these on your own life however, there may be an extremely high cost to do so, e.g., no contact with children.
I completely understand Sir.
I decided, a year ago this month, to cease all court activities (challenges/motions, etc) so that I don’t allow what was supposed to be a simple divorce dominate my young children’s childhood with court stuff and further screwing up their lives.
Hi Quicksilver,
Welcome to S4M. Dropping the rope is a gut-wrenching decision when the kids are involved, but then HCPs will bring down the roof on themselves and the kids in order to make sure you “lose” even if they lose right along with you.
I wish the courts would get up to speed on this. Then again, if they did, there goes the big bucks generated from high-conflict cases.
I would not shut this down and I would run it up the “flag pole” as a freedom of speech, censorship, civil rights issue. Appeals court here I come.
What he writes is irrelevant, especially if no names or identifying information are used. And then it would only be a defamation of character situation.
Its the issue that he’s being censored, and the run away judicial discretion that destroys families in family court, that is the topic here. Keep the site up, take up the guys offer to host offshore and carry the mantle of freedom of speech Anthony.
Although really, throwing in the towel, stopping the legal battles, and not focusing so much on your X is really healthy too. FWIW.
Right now, I’m in the same conundrum, MCM. I’d want to fight, because it’s important to push back against injustice and HCPs. On the other hand, the neverending conflict is so damned draining.
Right, I SO get that. We have gone as far as to spend upwards of 40K in court battling the anti father/pro crazy family court injustices (…and wouldn’t that have been great if that money could have been put into a college fund instead?) however right now we are in an anti conflict cycle. We have thrown in the towel and won’t even file a motion because the crooked family courts have taken enough of our money out of our household.
Dropping the rope really is the best option sometimes. Why does the belief that destroying yourself emotionally and financially or “going down with the ship” makes you a better parent persist?
Assuming that wasn’t a rhetorical question, I don’t think it has anything to do with being a better parent and everything to do with having to live with the perception you sacrificed your kids to save yourself.
Having been an officer, the epitome of cowardice is sacrificing your troops to save yourself. I don’t know what things my father was able to protect me from with respect to my alcoholic mother, I only remember the times he didn’t. I swore if I ever had kids and found myself in a similar situation, I wouldn’t fail to protect them. Fortunately for us, I’m not in that situation.
I disagree with your metaphor entirely. The children are not the troops. They do not help in the fight against the HCP. They are the casualties, they are the civilian casualties.
“The troops” happen to be myself. *I* am my husbands partner and *I* am the one who supports him in the constant battle against his psychotic X. OUR child together was becoming a civilian casualty as well and we decided to move him to safe ground.
The COD is already a casualty. He has an HCP/BPD mother. The root cause cannot be fixed by us and we cannot save that child from his mother. We can however save the live child and our marriage by not engaging.
I do not believe that my husband has to “go down with the ship” and take my son and I with him. Not for a moment.
But thanks for calling us cowards. Much appreciated. I hope that you too get to spend your entire life savings on a court battle very soon so you can wise up and look at the situation from a new perspective as a parent and not a bitter child.
I wasn’t calling anybody a coward. The point I was making was it’s precisely the sense of loyalty and duty that keeps them around when it’s better for everybody to get out.
Sorry you misinterpreted my comment.
I can agree with that. Until you’ve walked a mile in someone elses shoes, its really not fair to judge how another deals with the HCP in their life. Its the “loyalty” and the constant guilt that others constantly heap upon a divorced father that keeps him in the battle. When its actually best for him to get out of the line of fire. And often, the children become less of a target for their mother’s wrath when they can’t be used as a pawn in the battle against dad in the first place (it becomes a win-win.) Apologies accepted.
My apologies.
Lol – this is too funny and on a nuclear level. My Texas divorce decree specifically mentions PsychoExWife.Com and forbids me from posting information on it about my vindictive Ex. I will have a web hosting service in Nigeria soon and I can maybe host it on there.
Are you serious? Had you heard of the site before your divorce? How did that happen?
This story has caught my interest. I completely understand Mr. Morelli. There has never been an issue with my websites at http://doubleduped.com and http://lindalobo.info. The judge blatantly violated Mr Morelli’s rights.
She’s claiming her kids told her about the website. Interesting…
http://ahharsfnews.com/2011/08/10/bonnie-russellallison-morelli-the-follow-up-what-was-the-today-show-thinking
I heard (via telephone) from Mr Morelli, the version published here. Gotta love the he said-she said.
Actually, Ms Morelli stated the opposite in another interview on PhillyBurb.com.
http://www.phillyburbs.com/my_town/doylestown/divorced-dad-s-blog-becomes-free-speech-test/article_e726559e-cf6a-542a-abbc-ce967fced4d9.html
From the article:
HCPs are often great revisionists.
Bonnie Russell’s bio:
Mention of Russell’s name provokes groans from family court practitioners who know her. No wonder. Russell has been fighting for twelve years for custody of her daughter and against the perceived injustices of the court. In the process, she has made herself into one of the state’s most high-profile family court litigants. Since her custody case began in 1990, Russell has filed more than 45 motions with family courts in Marin and San Diego Counties. She has been arrested twice for violating a restraining order and interfering with court business and has served a total of eight days in jail. Nearly all of her motions were filed pro per, and only five have been granted. Opposed by some of the state’s top divorce attorneys, Russell has been frustrated at every turn. She has also been haunted by a negative psychological evaluation that diagnosed her as suffering from borderline personality disorder, susceptible to “impulsivity” and “lack of control.” Russell claims the Marin psychiatrist who wrote the evaluation is biased.
My comment: If aligning yourself with a diagnosed BPD who is a well-known family court terrorist doesn’t tell you all you need to know about that article, I’m not sure what will.
No question, fight back with whatever legal means available. I stood up to the emotional and psychological abuse for years. It did a real number on me so I know what this guy has gone through. I’ve donated some money and will donate more again.
Is Judge Gibbons an elected judge or an appointed judge?
From her bio (http://www.ourcampaigns.com/CandidateDetail.html?CandidateID=89188) it sys she’s “unanimously appointed” does that mean her former fellow divorce attorney colleagues voted her in or does that mean she put her name in the ring and no one opposed her? No idea how this works.
Can you counterclaim for frivolous lawsuits?
The blog itself might not be the best way to deal with a HCP ex, but it is one way to bust out of the isolation and silence that often befalls the victims of such a HCP ex spouse. I have never belonged to that particular site, nor have most members here. I think what resonates with us is the general cause of wanting to blow the lid off of the HCP experience.
The interviewed therapist who said that it is in the best interest of all divorced men to voice the message that “Your mom is a good person and loves you” has clearly not treated the HCP mother who is NOT A GOOD PERSON and LOVES a child only in so much as the child serves her own needs. You might have noticed the quote that Dr. Tara included from me. I live by that quote and think that the court system ought to begin to entertain that some mothers are damaging at best, and abusive at times.
I applaud this article for raising the very important issue of censorship. I might not like the site being discussed, but I DO think that freedom of speech ought to reign supreme in this great country. And family court judges who want to SHOVE these important issues aside with poor judgements and short sighted solutions ought to be recalled from their post.
It’s always disheartening when you come across a therapist who sides or sympathizes with the HCP. It’s like running from an assailant, finding a cop, and then getting hitting over the head with a billy club by the cop.
At what age does it become appropriate to discuss the reality (and how much of the reality) with your child and not just say; “Your mom is a good person and loves you”?
I think that when your Ex is a malicious, self-centered, mean person, to tell your child the opposite, is damaging to the child. The child needs to learn right from wrong. There are ways you can go about telling the truth without calling the other parent names. Simply telling the child, “What your mother did was wrong,” is not only justified, IMO, but healthy.
Hi MB,
Great point. Think we were writing our replies at the same time.
That’s a good question, Pezman (and welcome to S4M). I think it depends upon the age of the child. And, depending upon the age of the child, you’d need to explain it differently.
If kids have witnessed mom abusing dad — at any age — I don’t think you can say, “Mom and dad really love each other, but we just can’t get along. You’re mom’s a really good person.” That just normalizes the abuse your kids have witnessed.
At some point, something along the lines of “Your mother and I divorced because she was mean to me and it was really hurting me and making me sad. Sometimes it made me so sad and angry, I yelled back, which wasn’t okay. It’s not okay for grown-ups to treat each other like that and I don’t want you to think it’s okay for grown-ups to treat each other like that. I love you and it breaks my heart that I won’t be able to put you to bed every night and see you off to school in the morning, but all the yelling and meanness was making daddy sick. I think your mom loves you, but sometimes mommy (or daddy) doesn’t know how to show it. Mommy (or daddy) is mad at me for leaving and because she’s mad at me, she wants you to be mad at me, too. That’s why mommy is telling you such mean things about daddy. You know how you say things you don’t mean when you’re angry and throwing a temper tantrum? Well, sometimes grown-ups have temper tantrums and say things they don’t mean.”
The trick is to tell them the truth in age-appropriate terms that doesn’t trash your ex while letting the kids know that you love them.”
Then you ask your kids to think through the lies the other parent has told them. For example:
Kid: Mommy says you don’t love us and that we’re going to be living on the streets because you won’t give her your money.
You: That’s not true. I love you very much. Do you remember when I helped you learn how to ride your bike?
Kid: Yes.
You: Do you remember how we you fell and scraped your need and I kissed it and tickled you until you laughed?
Kid: Yes
You: That’s love. Do you remember how you would be sad when I had to leave for work every morning because you wanted me to stay and play with you?
Kid: Yes.
You: Well, that’s because Daddy had to go to work so he could make money to be able to take care of you to make sure you have a home and toys, and food and a TV to watch cartoons. Work is hard, but when you grow up, you’ll have to work to take care of yourself and your kids someday. That’s what you do when you love your family.
Granted, this flies in the face of conventional advice, which tells you to lie to your kids. I don’t understand why conventional wisdom tells you to lie to children. They know when something isn’t right or when of their parents is scary-crazy. Lying to them and saying “No, no, mommy’s okay and loves you” when mommy is abusing the kid or telling them awful lies about you only gaslights them like your ex did to you. Kids will intuitively find ways not to set off the crazy parent — unless the kid is “the bad child,” in which case, he or she will deliberately find ways to thwart mom or dad. These are the kids the HCP parent will try to get hospitalized, medicated, or, just maybe, actually give you custody.
“Here! Take your kid. It’s YOUR turn now. I’m tired of dealing with him.” Once these kinds of parents have messed up the kids to the point where they can no longer control them, they will often abdicate their parental responsibilities.” Sometimes it’s too late for the kid, sometimes it isn’t.
I totally agree. I have a friend who followed the “nothing bad (truth) said about the childrens father” They grew up to hate their mother! As adults when she tried to tell them about the scum bucket(at their request) she mentioned three items. They looked at her with pure hatetred..especailly the younger one..a man of 38.When my XDIL lies about their dad or misbehaves(living with a married man she is PG by in defience of court orders) I tell the girls. I don’t want them to immulate her bad behavior and beleive her lies “your daddy lied when he took his marriage vows’etc….
The woman is the true definetion of the “golden uterus”> She tells them “I pushed and pushed you out of my body and it was horrible”crying as she tells an 7 and 5 yr old this
oh yeah…borderline personality and bi polar…diagnosed
When you are parenting a child of a crazy woman who is displaying crazy/irrational/emotionally abusive behaviors to a child, you really do a disservice to a child of any child by pretending the mom is normal and a good person.
The child already knows, on some level, that mommy is not “OK.” and needs back-up. They need to hear that her behavior is not acceptable.
Of course, there is a difference between saying, “Hey kid, you mom is a raging a$@hole.” and “Your mom’s behavior is inappropriate.”
Exactly this.
Welcome to S4M carolina. Good to see you here!
yes!
“I think what resonates with us is the general cause of wanting to blow the lid off of the HCP experience.”
Agreed. I also agree with your take on therapists who don’t understand how HCPs work.
“Judge Diane E. Gibbons Orders ThePsychoExWife.com Shut Down: What Would You Do?”
I would tell Diane E. Gibbons to go f—- herself…
Oh, KARMA! As Paul would say to JTO, tell us how you really feel. Welcome to S4M, btw.