Shrink4Men Radio Embed: Grieving the Loss of an Abusive Partner with Author Tom Golden
Thank you very much to Tom Golden, LCSW of www.webhealing.com and author of Swallowed by a Snake: The Gift of the Masculine Side of Healing. He’s a great guest and I hope he will come back for another visit.
Thank you to the callers. I admire your courage to call in and share such heartbreaking stories and your pain. Thank you to the live listeners and chat room dwellers for taking time to hang out with Tom and I tonight. Thank you also to those who listen to the show archive.
Here’s the embed:
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Dr Tara J. Palmatier provides confidential, fee-for-service, consultation/coaching services to help both men and women work through their relationship issues via telephone and/or Skype chat. Her practice combines practical advice, support, reality testing and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Shrink4Men Services page for professional inquiries.
36 Responses to “Shrink4Men Radio Embed: Grieving the Loss of an Abusive Partner with Author Tom Golden”
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Interesting show. I thought the most compelling statement was that, when women grieve, they emote, call their friends, cry about it. When men grieve, they basically sink themselves into their work. It seems to me like, instead of processing grief (at all, in any fashion), that men are in denial, not only of the death (of a person, relationship, etc.), but they are also in denial of the grief, itself. I think that this makes men very palpable and vulnerable to the subsequent (and inevitable) Hoovers from the HCP. When the HCP comes back, pretending to be normal, all the evil nastiness that occurred before seems like a bad dream.
Hi MB,
I think this may be true in some cases. The other point Tom made is that many men, who don’t seem as if they are grieving, actually perform some kind of ritual to process the grief of which they may not even be aware.
This is a generalization, but it seems that many men begin the healing process by doing and women begin the healing process by emoting. Then, in my experience, it flips. After some women are done emoting, they then do something and men can emote after they’ve taken some action.
There are lots of factors that complicate the grieving process. Since many (not all) people who become involved with abusive HCPs or PDIs are replaying childhood dramas, the relationship recycles the original wounds and just becomes a vicious cycle. Many of these individuals haven’t properly grieved their childhoods yet.
I think, and this is just my opinion, on some level engaging in a relationship with a HCP or PDI is an attempt at mastery over their childhood pain. However, because the HCP/PDI is so similar to the parent or caregiver who caused the original damage, it just becomes a replay of misery rather than mastery or the corrective emotional experience.
The result is just another layer of emotional debris that needs grieving and healing. It’s a vicious cycle.
Yes, some men bury themselves in work to avoid or deny, but then a lot of women get stuck in emoting without ever taking action. At some point talking needs to lead to doing and vice versa.
I can see how both get stuck. I loved your suggestion for a manual. Life really should come with one.
Turns out it does. Have you ever read or listened to Micheal Dean’s A User’s Manual for the Human Experience? It’s available for free on iTunes! I had a friend recommend it to me and it’s great. Seriously- not a plug…lol I don’t know the guy. It’s full of common sense skills about setting boundaries, dealing with “serenity destroyers” and knowing yourself and your place in the world. Worth a listen for anyone who has dealt with CB’s.
“[E]ngaging in a relationship with a HCP or PDI is an attempt at mastery over their childhood pain.” –Dr. T
Yes! That’s exactly how I got deeper into my relationship with my wife. I felt like I finally mastered my relationship with my uBPD mother. So, when my wife started to show her true colors — suicide threats, cutting and all kinds of rage-filled tantrums, I thought I could also conquer the relationship with my wife. I don’t know if she’s got a PD but she’s definitely an HCP. The difference is that the “healthy boundaries” I have with my mother — (1) physical distance (2) emotional distance and (3) no trust — are boundaries I cannot and should not have with my wife. My relationship with my mom is as healthy and loving as it can be, given the circumstances. But I should not CHOOSE to have the same physical/emotional walls with my wife. That’s not real love and trust.
My biggest reason for giving the relationship “one last chance” is (1) my fear of loss, (2) my intense empathy for her feelings (or, rather, unhealthy empathy for her feelings) and (3) my nostalgia for the “good times” (which were really so interwoven with her rage episodes that the good times often really weren’t that good).
She says she’ll start invididual counseling for her anger problem, so right now I’m “all in” for a recovery to what our relationship was like when we were dating.
On the bright side, I’m doing all I can do to protect myself from the Hoover effect should I leave.
p.s. I got over my last long-term relationship by lifting weights and running everyday. Everyday I would push myself to the edge of my physical limits. It was great for me! Don’t get me wrong, I was still sad and confused…
But I was sad, confused and damn good looking!
When I went through a divorce (which lasted for 2.5 long years), I ran 3 miles every day. Otherwise I couldn’t sleep. Way better than getting drunk every night.
Exercise and good nutrition are essential. I dropped 75 lbs and got back into shape. I honestly believe that it helped me make better choices along the way. Confidence is the first thing sociopaths/PDs want to take from you. I, as well, was confused, angry and depressed but I could sleep. Drinking and drugs are a serious threat to your well being, thinking and health when dealing with loss.
LOL – me too. Had great biceps and triceps
Lt.
There will be no going back to the way it was when you were dating if her therapy is successful. She wore a mask when she met you. Much if not all of her behavior was fake.
One of the reasons that people want it back to the way it was is because it was “too” good. It isn’t a honeymoon phase it is a grooming phase of a predator which is very different. Dopamine is one of the neurotransmitters that places importance on things. This is how predators can get you hooked. Love bombing pumps neurotransmitters up and this can have a biochemical addictive quality to it.
As Dr. T said on her show above, it is like Chasing the Dragon, and it is what heroin addicts do. I knew someone famous with one hell of a heroin addiction. This is what they chase– that feeling of euphoria to the point where they get tunnel vision and lose sight of everything else bad that the drug does. They only obsess and fixate on the high and their judgement gets so far off that they lose all perspective. However, you get trashed when you crash as you well know, and there is no avoiding that. One way or another a Cluster B can take your life just as heroin can. Your playing with with fire.
The root of the fantasy of going back to the way it was is somewhat or very obsessional and purely delusional when people do this. You are in love with a mythical person. You really need to stop thinking about the way it was because it isn’t anymore and really never was. The woman you are married to that rages, cuts, and lives a double life as a sane person at work is the real her.
Think about it. If she can pull being sane off at work, considering the people in the office are not as crazy as her and she isn’t behaving crazy there, then she can do it with you. She chooses not to. You are just her safe old punching bag to release her self hatred and inability to control her emotions. Do you really believe you deserve this?
When you leave, do you really think she will hold it together at work? I suspect she may be hospitalized because of her lower functioning levels such as cutting and pseudo suicide threats. Those are good indicators of very poor self reliance in the areas of pain management, maturity, not to mention sanity. Her way of dealing with it is turning her pain into anger and unleashing it at you.
If I was your therapist, I would suggest that you separate to get you out of the battle field so that you can get gain perspective. This way you will have a trial run of how crazy she may get too. It is extremely difficult to try to change and stay in a Cluster B relationship. Another reason is that it may boil over on her part when you start to not be her punching bag or return love after she has abused you.
B Experienced,
Your insights are spot on! That can mean one of four things: (1) you are telepathic, (2) you are omniscient, (3) you’ve been spying on me, or (4) my wife is following a pattern similar to other Cluster Bs!!!
I’m going to go with no. 4.
It’s very hard for me to accept that she was being “fake” for the first two years of our courtship. But there’s really no other explanation for it. You write, “It isn’t a honeymoon phase it is a grooming phase of a predator.” Harsh words, but probably true…
My pyschiatrist was shocked that I haven’t moved out already. She said that I presented to her as a “battered spouse.” I don’t disagree.
You write, “I suspect she may be hospitalized because of her lower functioning levels such as cutting and pseudo suicide threats.” Again, this is spot on. And the thought that hospitalization will likely happen makes me very, very sad. But ultimately, it’s not my fault, and I am not responsible.
I like your idea of the “trial run.” I’m looking at places this week. I’m trying to build up the courage to leave.
What is your advice once I leave? I think I’ll keep a journal of each day and how I feel. I have lots of great friends and family so I would try to stay busy. do you have a good playbook for dealing with this separation period?
Thanks again for your very thoughtful advice!
Hi Lt.
The fact that she may be hospitalized does not bother me one bit. If she isn’t, then somebody else may be. These people even abuse people who are sick in the psychiatric ward. Does it bother you now? That is how far they will go. It could get worse, and somebody will end up dead. You really have got to stop feeling sorry for her. There is no other way to put it then to say it is pathetic. You need a firm hand now because you are in a state of transference. You are just trying to get another BPD woman to prove that you are worth loving. That is the bottom line. You aren’t the one who isn’t unlovable they are. Both women are just fused in your mind now. You don’t have enough insight and understanding yet to see the level and layers of all your psychopathology with these women. That is all you need to know right now.
When I suggested a trial separation, I did not mean to see if you want to go back. I wanted you to tell her this so that it looks hopeful to her, but at the same time you are putting the responsibility of her on her shrink. These people are so attracted to anyone who is a pseudo replacement parent that this may give you a chance for her to have someone to bitch to and pathology depend on. Let her say that it is all you to the therapist. Who cares!That is her shrinks problem, and a small price to pay to get rid of a Cluster B. Big whoopy doo doo! Who cares what this fruit loop thinks of you. It is what you think of you that matters that isn’t delusional. You are 100 percent delusional to think she will ever change. There is psychopathy in BPD and nobody can fix that now. Look on The Aftermath Psychopathy site run by Dr. Dave Kosson and Dr. Robert Hare. It says it right on that site. Has she not proven she has no morals and conscience? She has to me. It is psychopathic to cut yourself because you have no empathy or moral concept not to even harm yourself or that it is wrong. There is no difference if she cuts you with no empathy. It is just turned in at herself. It is a myth to believe that a psychopath always knows right from wrong. It is dangerous to believe this and even more dangerous that they don’t always know. Why would they bother when they believe they know it all and can do want they want, when they want, to who they want. It makes sense to me.
In order to work up the nerve you have to say it is about you and not her. Just say I really just have a lot on my mind and need to a place by myself to rest and think. NEVER elude or say that you may take her back or that it is only for awhile. You first have to get the apartment so you do have a safe place. You never tell her this when you are alone. Do it in a public park with a lot of witnesses and a camera ready to go. Take a voice recorder as well. Do not get mad if she threatens or tries to physically harm you. You are trained in combat to be calm so I know you can do this. Be absolutely certain that you are using force for force if you need to. Talk to the police about this and tell them what your plan is before you meet her. This shows excellent judgment and legal responsibility on your part. She can’t argue that your the nut case then. You want the police on your side before this happens. You have a Psychiatrist to back you up now, and she is just getting one now because you may leave. This is classic BPD psychopathology. You are threatening abandonment in her mind. Normal people think leaving would be okay in your shoes. This proves you are the sane one. This is your Golden opportunity. Take it.
Again, spot on…
Probably my biggest obstacle now is my sympathy for her. It feels like she has a giant hole where her self-esteem should be. So she projects her self-hate and anger at me.
Her mother once said to her, “YOU are the reason your father is leaving me.” She was in her early teens. Now she makes up pathetic, nonsensical excuses for her physical violence toward me. Like me, she is also reliving the past. We are both re-living our cycles of abuse. I am giving and she is taking. The black hole inside her will always take, always project anger outward. Her black hole will never be satiated. I have to accept that. There’s no way I can fill her void, just as I could never fill my mother’s void.
These are the concepts I’m trying to understand and accept.
Lt.
I don’t know if her Mother was abusive, but keep in mind that it is not accepted by competent science that parental abuse is the sole reason for BPD. Nobody knows why they are willing participants to cause such harm. She could have been the problem and not have been abused. I have seen this with my own eyes. Many B’s latch onto the parent myth and use it for life. They love the blame the parents therapy. Behavior can start for one reason and continue on for another.The parent may have lost it at one time or a few because of them. They make a good argument for devil possession, and I am an atheist! The Cluster B did not at all deserve the abuse either. You don’t fight fire with fire. Some were never abused We have to be fair to them as well because they may get lost and our invaluable to the puzzle. Trust me on this one. We have an epidemic of these scenarios .
Her reason for abusing you is psychotic. However, she knows it is wrong but simply doesn’t care so she is still legally and clinically sane, and she has no valid reason for it. Mental Illness means that biochemicals are the sole real for the problem. This is not the case with her. Who knows how much she added to it all with her own messed up stress. She has to own that part as well. Unhealthy hate is deadly.
I have a friend who separates human genome on a doctorate level for a living, I want him to help figure out why I have none of this so we can end this all now. lol
Maybe you may like David Pelzer. He has a site you might identify with. His Mother was Satan in drag.
She is a bottomless pit of need. It is like filling the center of the earth. It is impossible for one person to meet her needs. Our daughter was a pure joy to raise after living with BPDs. It was easy street for me. I see the bonus. She is more special to me than most people see their kids. People have said to us that they have never seen a family like us 3. We are all like a bunch of best friends. We are very devoted to each other. That is what I did with my abuse. I turned it around and made good out of it.
I still can’t believe that they let her work with abused kids. Get your finances straightened out before you leave because she will get fired if they ever find out. She can’t hold a license if that kind of abuse is proven and/or if she is charged with any crime. This is what I mean by better her than you harmed. My guess is that she may be starting or in para menopause as well. This isn’t going to help her anger, depression or anxiety and who knows what else. Is she medicated at all?
Here’s my journal for January. This has been the worst month. Each month has been progressively worse. My head says LEAVE NOW!!! but my heart feels sorry for her and is afraid to leave, and is afraid of loss.
3 January, Monday night/Tuesday morning — midnight to 7:30am — She started fighting with me at midnight and kicked me out of the bed at 3am. She had been drinking. She started fighting again at 5am. She laid down on the floor screaming and crying. I had to miss work on Tuesday. I have never missed work under similar circumstances in my life.
9 January, Sunday night/Monday morning — midnight to 3am — She found out that I almost moved out. She could not control her anger. Shrieking and crying into the morning, but no physical violence.
15 January, Saturday night/Sunday morning — 2-5am — She was drunk. She got punched in the face by a crazy girl at a bar that night. I begged her to ignore the girl at least 5 times before she got punched. But she antagonized the girl until the girl got violent. I fought off three girls for her, and one of them ripped the buttons off my shirt. After we got home, we fought. It was the usual “You don’t support me/It’s all your fault” argument. She claimed that she was going to kill herself and said she was going to drive herself to the hospital. I tried to barricade myself into the den to sleep. She broke in, screaming and crying and kicked and punched my mom’s lilly painting. The painting is invaluable to me. Then, that afternoon, she begged me not to leave her.
21/22 January, Saturday night/Sunday morning — 2am-5am — It started with her crying and shrieking at me, then she got physically violent. It was mainly punching. She grabbed my crotch at one point, causing pain to my testicles. I tried to run out the door, but she blocked me. At one point I was able to get out the door and into the elevator, but she ran into the elevator and wouldn’t let the doors close.
22/23 January, Sunday night/Monday morning — 1-3am — Two hours of crying and shrieking at me, no physical violence.
23/24 January, Monday night/Tuesday morning — One hour of crying and shrieking at me, 11-midnight. She says, “you say it’s ALL MY FAULT. YOU NEVER take responsibility. I’m losing it.” “I can’t take this anymore.” “YOU’RE going to leave ME, even though it’s YOUR fault. YOU did this.” Lots of “YOU DID THIS.”
24/25 January, Tuesday night — 11:30-1:30 — Same as the night before. I kept my calm, and only said supporting words for two hours. Then I tape recorded her admitting to committing acts of domestic violence on me on five separate occasions. Strangely, she apologized at the end before we went to sleep.
p.s. she’s not on meds and she’s in her mid 20s…
I liked you’re comments:
“She is a bottomless pit of need.” Yes, it never ends with her. She is always distraught about *something* that is all MY fault. I can’t go a week without ruining a night for me. We can just agree to disagree.
“They make a good argument for devil possession.” I thought she resembled a Gremlin during a fight. She was all sweet and cuddly one moment, the next moment she’s shreiking at me, sobbing, and getting violent.
“That is what I did with my abuse. I turned it around and made good out of it.” That is really awesome. You’re a great role model for me!
I hope to be writing the same comment at this time next year! 
Lt;
This is a CRISIS POINT. You have GOT to find the number of crisis services at the nearest Mental Health agency NOW. Go to the police and find out where it is. This situation is so out of control that it can only be described as insane on many levels and extremely dangerous. You are not in a combat situation and you are using those defenses. It doesn’t work like that in the real world! Your tenacity is highly admirable in a combat situation, but this isn’t the same rodeo. You are behaving highly irrational as well because you have not called an ambulance or involved the police.
She is dangerous to herself and others and needs to be put in the hospital immediately. You can get her admitted on that. How would you feel if she hurt or killed someone else? Take responsibility for others safety and stop focusing on her now. If you need sympathy and empathy for someone, focus it on that. You do have a social responsibility to stop this insanity now.
I agree with Kubler Ross critics. Not all people go through those 5 stages, and the science was poor because she only studied a small group of people and it was applied and accepted to the whole human race by many as though it was instinctual.
I worked for years with Catholic Priests. I dealt with grieving people on a daily basis. They had all kinds of losses. The deaths ranged from normal to suicides or horrific accidents. I even remember a man who had a very hard time with the loss of a finger. The people had different religions, ethnic backgrounds, and some were even atheists. I found that it didn’t matter what the sex was when it came to grieving. It was how they were socialized and conditioned through many factors as well as personality style. I still remember my initial surprise at the amount of men who cried, and the amount of women who were leading people out of their grief while they were grieving in a controlled manner and not crying; which one may say is a masculine style. This was the case with my Mother and Father too. My Father was far more emotional and grief stricken when my sister who was their daughter died.
Another huge factor was if the person felt emotionally safe with you enough to show their vulnerabilities and pain. People often mistake a person’s lack of wanting to share with them as a sign that all is not well with them or that they are in denial when they simply didn’t find you the person they wanted or needed help from if it was needed at all. A lot of people took their losses in their stride and looked at death or the loss as a positive because of their religious beliefs or view on life and weren’t big on grieving.
The only denial with loss or death I saw was when a few people were in disbelief from shock, and that didn’t last long. Their brain freeze from anxiety just needed to thaw. I only found 1 person in all those years who had some very pathological denial and it bordered on psychotic from the loss of someone dying.I found that the hardest part for people was the process of learning to live without the deceased person or the loss in their life and not the acceptance of their death or loss.
I have found to be true, and I agree with the empirical studies on grief that after the initial grief reaction, a positive attitude and actions are necessary even if a mourning process is taken along with it. Just delving in it continually and feeling it and validating it is not good. I find that way pain can get glorified and honored and even made special in a narcissistic way. It can get entrenched and become part of someone’s identity as a victim, sometimes for life, and that isn’t any different than a BPD’s pain and inability to recover from it. Grief needs control, limits, positive action, and a beginning and an end. The less emotions you have the better off you are which is usually the case in all areas of life. No one usually fails when a sound intellect and a healthy spirit lead the way.
Sometimes distraction is necessary because this way you can start to rebuild and get over the loss when focusing on it starts to go no where good. You can gain a healthy perspective by distracting yourself if it becomes overwhelming too. Not reading from the book of pain everyday is refreshing too.
I agree that the five stages of grief are far from universally applicable. Not everyone goes through all of the stages, and even if they do, it’s not a linear, progressive kind of thing. Not everyone goes through denial, bargaining, etc., and stages can mix and match. Depression can precede anger just as easily as the other way around, in my experience.
^This. Victimhood has become elevated to an unprecendented and unhealthy level, in my opinion. It’s also way too easy to use it as an excuse for inaction, and as absolution from all responsibility for your own actions.
Sine,
Exactly. I had recently run across an article by a male Psychiatrist. He thought the same thing I did. He loosely stated that nowadays you get to be a victim for life when death or something horrible happens. Pity and never getting over it is accepted and even encouraged. It becomes a reason to get a free pass for not accomplishing anything or being held accountable. That is the main reason why I very seldom bring up anything that happened to me.
I just think that the abuse and pain industry has to stay in business or so they believe. Ironically, their theories are based on just that, theory, and not empirical studies or evidence that doesn’t contradict itself with common sense. That is the first sign of bad science. I sure hope common sense makes a come back.
A good shrink has a treatment plan with a beginning and an END included in it.
This is as good a place as any to raise some related concerns involving children — these could, I suspect, be the topics of a series of essays:
1. Let’s say you’re in a relationship with a HCP, but things aren’t, yet, so bad as to cause a split, or, finances,etc. are such that a split isn’t feasible. BUT, the kids are caught in a cross-fire of sorts. The last thing they need is to be exposed to similar via “play dates” with kids with similar parents, or kids with budding HCP tendencies. Or, one has split…and keeping the kids with a healthy friends & families is really warranted. QUESTION: How can one identify other kids that show inclinations toward being emotionally abusive, etc, so they can be avoided? We’ve got a pair (same family) in our neighborhood, but everybody knows about them…and their social life has mostly moved around the sports their kids play.
2. Let’s say the relationship is splitting for sure…and child custody is going to be split half-n-half (give or take…). What are some strategies for getting young kids (10+) the right kind of help, couseling, etc. to see the manipulative parent for what they are, or, other guidance to help fend off the long-term effect of that influence (to the extent that such might be possible)?
3. Worst case, the child(ren) get so warped that one has to confront the ugly realization that they are not the sort of creatures one really wants to have any association with…disowning one’s child(ren) becausee they’ve matured into monsters often involves a lot of grieving, to be sure, but also [based on my limited 2nd-hand exposure] a lot of regret for not doing something/trying something long before. Sometimes, the child makes this choice for you.
I know of a case involving something like each of the above…the last (disowning one’s own child) is the likely result of someone NOT pursuing the court’s formal severance of the spouse’s (mother’s) diagnosed Bi-Polar disorder when they could have…under the socially stereotypical mindset that ‘a child needs a mom.’ (in that case, set in another country, the male spouse withheld from the courts the Bi-Polar diagnosis & downplayed the spouse’s symptoms, or went along with that so the kids wouldn’t lose their mom).
Ken,
To your third point, I have been with my husband for 11.5 years – since his children were ages 4 and 3 years old. His 15 year old is becoming a clone of her BPD mother. Lazy, entitled, immature, failing 10th grade. His 14 year old is a straight A student who enjoys spending time with us and is making plans for college.
Of course my husband loves both of his kids. But I’ve noticed he has shifted his focus to the 14 year old. He has resigned to the fact that the 15 year old has chosen to be enmeshed with her mother and there is nothing he can do about it. And he has stopped enabling her (i.e., stopped with the Disney parenting and rewarding her for crappy behavior). I’m proud of him for this, but I know it was really hard for him to get to this point. And painful.
Don’t give up on the 15-year-old yet. At 15, my oldest son was lazy, entitled, immature, extremely angry at everything and almost failed out of high school. I’ve since realized that my oldest son’s personality is much more like that of his mother than of me. However, he wasn’t abused in any way as a child and I was always there for him as a teenager, even if he rejected my help. He’s almost 21 now and still has more maturing to do, but I see no signs of a personality disorder in him.
Hopefully, the influence of your husband on his daughter will also have an impact in time.
I myself wouldn’t give up on a young adult or under aged child because they can go through pathological variants as they mature which are often times extensions or exaggerations of their own parents psychopathology.
It is my opinion, if a child is going to truly have a full blown PD(s) that this will be evident from a very to young age. One can see the natural attraction and occurrence of the pathological behaviors they are choosing. They are more than willing participants. There really isn’t any evidence to prove that a PD has to be the outcome either in this case either.
At the same time, I do think that it is more than a full time job of the parent to change their child’s course for the most part when their child is genetically predisposed to it. I have empathy for the healthy parent trying to help their child because they are easily blamed for their child’s behavior when it isn’t their fault. It is even worse when the the other parent has the same pathology. From those standpoints, I think we need to start thinking of other options than putting all the responsibility of the child on the healthy parent. Even shrinks get to pick what problems and the people they will work with or not, and if so how many who have them at one time. They get to bow out, but yet we continually hold parents responsible in those matters. It is unfair, unrealistic and merciless. Not to mention a lot of nerve on the shrinks part for holding the parent accountable when they won’t be apart of it or only have to work with it for a few hours a week. The ignorance, arrogance and audacity of that always got to me.
Another problem in society now is that parents of adult children are still parenting them like children and it is encouraged. There is a time to set them free and let them stand or fall on their own. There has to be a cut off point or no expectation can be met even when a child who has a PD(s). The Blame the Parents therapies reinforce this.
My husband hasn’t given up on his 15 year old. He just stopped preventing natural consequences from occurring. Like, if you fail tenth grade, you don’t get a car. That sort of thing.
I aced tenth grade and still didn’t get a car. I blame my parents!
Tenth grade wuz the toughest 3 years of mah life….
Micksbabe,
You are a nice example for us poor guys caught up with women who enjoy torturing us men,
My husband’s two daughters disowned him when they were 15 and 12 years old. They are now 18 and 20 years old and haven’t spoken to him in years. The younger daughter has a blog, though, and my husband occasionally reads it. Sadly, she appears to have turned into her mother, except she’s also a religious zealot.
I met her once, when she was 9 years old and she seemed like a nice kid, except for when she slapped my husband across the face for having beer in the refrigerator. We later heard from her older brother (husband’s former stepson) that she was going around bragging about hitting him. I can’t help but wonder if she was seeing her mother strike her husband. Where did she get the idea that slapping a grown man was a good idea?
The older daughter was recently diagnosed with some form of autism. We found out about this diagnosis because my husband’s ex posts on an autism support board. Her youngest child is also autistic. He’s five. My husband had always described his daughter as being “dreamy” and “temperamental”. When I met her, she was almost 12 and was actually the most mature and nicest of the three kids. She spontaneously gave me a hug and called me her “other mom”. She was the last one to stop talking to my husband. My husband was devastated when he read about her diagnosis on the Internet. He knows he could have helped her if his ex wife had not done such an effective job alienating them.
My husband loves his kids and always will. I, on the other hand, don’t care to have anything to do with them. I have watched their mother use her kids to manipulate adults into falling into line. She thought she could do the same thing to me, assuming that I would want to fall in line so her kids wouldn’t hate me. But their hateful behavior has not made me want to reach out to them to “win them over”. It makes me hope they never contact us. I have slim hope for the older daughter and no hope for the younger one.
Caller Tony where are you!
Unbelievable call. iF you changed your name to Joe, it would be my exact story!! I just had my phone blocked, My heart races just thinking she can’t get through to me. I would love to actually talk to you>
Caller Tony, please private message me. Would love to talk about OUR same situation
Thanks again Dr. T for all the work that you do.
I had some comments for the second caller….think his name is Tony? My memory isn’t what it used to be. I’ve been where you are brah. My ex wife would go between me and her ex husband. After she and I got married then divorced, the day after the divorce was final, she asked me if I wanted to date her again. I said um no. But here’s my point, and I hope others that are going thru the same thing, you have to cut ties with the back and forth cycle. It wasn’t until I cut ties with her that I could go thru the process. Until you do that, you will only be able to get so far and your back to ground zero when you get put on the back burner for whatever reason. I also have a been diagnosed with a chronic illness that is going to shave about 10 years off my life, and will evenutally leave me bedridden. I look at it as God’s way of giving me a wake up call and a second chance at life. Now I look at things as “if this is the last day on earth for me what would I do.” I do that within reason but I mainly focus on keeping the toxic people out of my life. Dr. T is dead on when she says you have to eliminate all contact with her in order to get thru the grievance process. Its your life brah. I’d like to rationalize that I was given this illness to help others improve their life instead of me playing in traffic. Again, how you live your life is your choice. I hope you do the right thing brah. You never know, tomorrow you could not wake up. Fight the addiction, and it will get easier
Hi Jason,
I am in the same club with illness’ triggered from a series of Cluster B’s. Maybe we can give it a name. The Mile High Club would fit because that is how far Cluster B’s expect and demand you jump or go for them, but it is taken.
I listened to the first hour or so of the embed the other night and felt very sad for the caller from the UK whose wife has alienated his children from him. That’s probably the worst nightmare of every loving parent who is separated or divorced.
I was also contemplating the second caller’s story, about how he keeps getting sucked back in with his not-quite-ex. My first response was along the lines of “are you nuts?” but was more sympathetic after considering how powerful a force loneliness can be.
Hi Philip,
I wanted to leave this for you. I remember when you said that your ex would invite you for dinner and then said that you weren’t having any. It was a way of trying to fend off the abandonment wound and get her power back. This kind of sadistic psychopathy finds this kind of stuff verrry enjoyable. When she sees the rejection in you she didn’t need dinner anyway because she already had hers with you. You have to think predator in the wild not the domesticated cat kind at times. If you keep this analogy in mind you will be able to answer a lot of questions. Do psychopaths eat their young? Yes they do, they relish destroying and/or devouring their core being, sometimes they kill their young. I taught myself a a lot this way, and I was able to go to the Medical Library and study more in the Forensic Perspective. You have a degree in the Medical Field so you will understand it. Use that to your advantage. Pretend you are them and then get into their mind. You are a person who is very kind and a very decent human being with empathy and manners that are right on and impeccable. This isn’t something you would even fathom and that it why it is so hard for you to understand and why you struggle with it. I find your pain heart wrenching. Good people are with you .It is my sincerest hope that you find peace of mind and a way to live well with this horrible situation. Please try to give your mind a rest awhile too. You are doing all that you can. Take Care of yourself.