Winning vs. Taking: What Does Winning Mean to Abusive, High-Conflict and/or Personality Disordered Women?
Recently on the Shrink4Men Forum, LiliM, one of our mods, posed an interesting question regarding what winning means to abusive, high-conflict and personality disordered individuals (Histrionic Personality Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder). I’d been considering this issue as well ever since Charlie Sheen’s infamous public meltdown and “Duh, Winning” sound byte.
LiliM hypothesizes that individuals with these characterological disorders are all about winning, but that winning is really about taking.
A high-conflict and/or personality disordered individual is often breathtakingly emotionally immature. She seems to get a charge from engaging in never-ending power struggles with her parent-partner-ex. She’ll go round and round and round and round with you often over pointless things. Why does she do this?
Duh, winning.
What does she want?
To “win” at all costs.
What does winning mean?
Taking.
Winning vs. Taking
Yes, it’s about “Winning, duh!” However, to an abusive high-conflict and/or personality disordered individual, “winning” isn’t about working hard to train for a 6k race and coming in first place or winning at a game of chance like roulette or winning at a game of skill like chess. Winning these kinds of victories doesn’t necessarily cause harm to an opponent, which, I believe, is the crucial factor.
If you’re married to, dating or divorcing a woman with these issues, you are her opponent. The goal of her never-ending power plays seems to be about inflicting pain and exerting control. In order for her to win, you must lose. Relationships are zero sum games. She does this by: 
- Taking something away (e.g., money, love, material possessions, self-respect, self-worth, etc.)
- Destroying something you love (e.g., a prized possession or a child.)
- Forcing you to take something (e.g., abuse, infidelity, self-created debt, her vacation choice, etc.)
- Turning a positive into a negative (e.g., something good happens to you and she denigrates it, ignores it, and/or minimizes it.)
She “wins” by hurting others. It’s not a win unless she can take something from you, even if it holds no real value for her. The value is in taking it, taking it by force and without your consent.
A Shrink4Men Forum member writes:
It’s simplistic, but I think that they see both winning and taking as gaining control. They don’t want some control, they want total control. It’s like the bully picking on kids they know they can beat or stealing something they have no interest in. It’s not that they wanted the candy or care whether you have it. They need you to know they can take it away from you.
Real victory, imaginary victory, meaningless victory, Pyrrhic victory — it doesn’t matter. She has to believe she is getting the better end of the stick and the biggest piece of the pie, regardless of whether or not she even likes the pie or has any intention of eating it.
There isn’t enough breast milk in the world or toys or candy or money or attention or love.
This kind of woman will manipulate, lie, steal, cheat and bully in order to take and gain control over both tangible and intangible things. Many seem to be incapable of being happy for the good fortune of others, including something as trivial as a compliment. She will seethe with jealousy, anger and resentment and denigrate or ignore any success you achieve, for example, a promotion.
She doesn’t seem able to be happy when something good happens to you. Instead, she experiences it as deprivation — something good happening to you means something good isn’t happening to her and she can’t have that. Instead of being happy for you and proud of you, she feels jealous and a sense of lack.
A Shrink4Men Forum member writes:
They are consumed with petty jealousy. Whether it’s someone’s time, affection or gifts, they want it. If people are kind to you, validating or generous, it makes you stronger and harder to control, plus it means you’re getting something they’re not getting it (even if they have their own already).
Another Forum member:
My surviving sister is a narcissist who is never happy unless she’s taking something from someone. Usually in the form of relationships. Over the years, she has sought to divide my siblings into rival factions (thank God we all figured it out years ago) while being everyone’s best friend. She has caused trouble with in-laws who didn’t deserve it then tried to cultivate “loving” relationships with my nieces and nephews — most of them have figured her out by now and will tolerate her, but are leery. It’s like she can’t stand it if someone has something she doesn’t have, even if it is by nature theirs, like a parent-child relationship. She has tried over the years to alienate my son from me. It’s not working.
And another:
I agree, it is about taking, taking = control, and controlling others is the “win.” Not that it makes them happy.
In my experience the most threatening thing to my BPD/NPD is other people liking me. She works hard to derail those relationships and then later revive them without me as part of the loop (if she can). She’ll easily lie about what others say and think about me to try to drive a wedge between me and them.
And another:
Taking = Winning. If they, themselves, didn’t have to make the sacrifice for the gain, then it’s a win. Doesn’t matter how trivial. If they can order someone else to get up and refill their drink for them, it’s a WIN. If they can extort money from their ex-husband under the guise of being, “for the kids,” it’s a WIN. It’s the reason they have boundaries and why other people’s boundaries are an insult to the BPD.
Even when they “win,” they’re not happy.
Most people know the expression “sore loser.” An abusive high-conflict and/or personality disordered woman is a sore winner. She’s not gracious when she wins and takes nor does it bring her any real lasting pleasure. She may fleetingly flash The Smirk™ when she thinks she’s bested you, deprived you, hurt you, and/or pulled one over on you, but it doesn’t make her happy.
She doesn’t seem to understand that happiness comes from working at success and then savoring one’s accomplishment rather than taking from others what she’s done nothing to earn nor deserve. Demanding and bullying others until you get your way is not an accomplishment. Any 3-year old can do it.
This is why the more you do for these women, the more you give these women, and the more you allow these women to take from you, the more unhappy and nasty they become. Just like over-indulged, spoiled children who demand a new toy, play with it for a minute and then discard the new toy and demand another toy and another and another.
Why are you being nice? What do you want?
Abusive high-conflict and personality disordered women and men know how to take, but many don’t know how to receive what is given freely and given with love. Because many of these individuals only give something with the expectation of getting something, they can’t fathom being nice just to be nice and project their own transactional nature onto others.
This kind of woman doesn’t give without strings attached, therefore, in her mind, neither do you. She judges others by her own twisted yardstick. Mellaril, another Shrink4Men contributor and Forum mod, makes this very astute observation:
I once asked a friend who is a LCSW, why no matter what I did, it was never quite good enough for my ex-girlfriend. She said it went back to the control issue, even when she got what she asked for. My friend said, “You accommodated her, you didn’t submit to her. When she got her way it was because you chose to do it, not because you had to and she knew it.”
I think it’s a variant of the “You only did it to make me happy. You didn’t want to do it.” A more precise rendering would be. “You did it because you wanted to, I didn’t make you do it.”
That pisses them off.
Another forum member writes:
I once painted my wife a picture. When I gave it to her (after about 40+ hrs work) she looked utterly unimpressed. I asked her if she didn’t like it and explained that I’d painted it for her. She said, “No, you didn’t paint it for me. You painted it and then you gave it to me.”
If there is any doubt about you thinking of them first and foremost then everything you do or say is invalid, wrong or an attack.
And another:
For a few years while I was in school and she was working full time if she needed an oil change her only choice would be to go on a Saturday. So instead, I would sometimes take her car in during the week because I had more time and could just sit at the dealership and study.
Well, every time I’d do this she’d frantically try to do something nice for me over the next few days. I always found this weird and told her it wasn’t necessary.
She’d always say, “no no, you did something nice for me so it’s my turn to do something nice for you.” Well in reality it meant, “You can’t have one up on me in the nice department.” They just can’t accept receiving something from their partner and not understanding we don’t require something in return. For them it’s not about give and take. It’s about winning.
Many of these women (and their male counterparts) are very successful at taking, but taking isn’t winning. Ultimately, taking pleasure in hurting others, taking what doesn’t belong to them, bullying others into getting their way, and taking material assets that they’ve done nothing to earn doesn’t make them happy and it doesn’t make them winners.
It makes them miserable, pathetic losers.
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Dr Tara J. Palmatier provides confidential, fee-for-service, consultation/coaching services to help both men and women work through their relationship issues via telephone and/or Skype chat. Her practice combines practical advice, support, reality testing and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Shrink4Men Services page for professional inquiries.
115 Responses to “Winning vs. Taking: What Does Winning Mean to Abusive, High-Conflict and/or Personality Disordered Women?”
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It gets better. It’s not just that you can’t win, they hate you for playing.
My exgf sat across the table from me after we had broken up and told me, “You did everything I ever asked of you. The harder you tried the more I resented you for it. I made things so hard for you.”
I asked her if that meant I had been playing a game I could never win.
“Pretty much.”
I don’t know which ones are more disturbing. Those like your ex who have some self-awareness, but keep on keeping on or the oblivious ones who just blindly act out.
My friend had an opinion on that,
“It’s nice (i.e., easier to understand) when they confess.”
I’d say one of two things to this –
1) Pure sociopath. Psychopaths may not necessarily know how they are/what they are doing is wrong; sociopaths know the difference and still continue their ways.
2) Its a trick. Its a facade that she’s acknowledging her wrong ways being the ‘first step’ towards change. You see a glimmer of hope; she sees another opening to attack and will expose that chink in your armor.
I agree that the fleeting glimmer of self-awareness is often a trap and also often part of a Hoover. Much like Brigadoon, the self-awareness vanishes as quickly as it appeared.
Yes and no. It can definitely be a trap that lowers your defenses. It did mine.
With my exgf, it wasn’t that the self-awareness vanished, she had it right up to the day I cut her loose. It was like there was a giant chasm that seperated what she knew from understanding what it meant and trying to make things better. It was maddening to hear her appear to know what she was doing and what she was losing and be totally incapable or unwilling to do anything about it. On top of it, I could not detect the faintest hint of malice or spite in her. None. That made it worse.
I couldn’t understand how she could be so aware and so clueless at the same time.
I’ve noticed before that there is a certain subset of Cluster B’s who spend a lot of time diving into psych textbooks, and maybe even taking up psychology as a profession, who will mimic self-awareness because it’s a useful tactic for appearing “normal” and getting people off-guard. I’ve never totally figured out if it’s just another weapon to the Cluster B, or if they are grasping at some way of being normal and they figure that if they mimic “normal” behaviors, they can actually transform themselves into that. Maybe a bit of both.
However, my experience has been that if you assume that every single thing a Cluster B says and does is tactical, you’ll very seldom go wrong.
She had a BA in Psych and a Masters in Nursing.
“However, my experience has been that if you assume that every single thing a Cluster B says and does is tactical, you’ll very seldom go wrong.”
The problem being that at age 27, I had no idea what a Cluster B was let alone the baggage I was carrying that made me vulnerable to her.
I hear you. I was in that same boat. Until a few years ago, I had never heard of the Cluster B personality disorders, and I didn’t really understand them until I started reading here and at Narcissists Suck.
From my experience with nurses, professionally and personally, I wonder if nurses are more likely to have Cluster B personality disorders. Anyone have thoughts on the incidence of personality disorders among nurses?
Shari Schreiber discusses “cargivers” and PDs in “Do You Love to Be Needed or Need to be Loved.” There’s a link to her site on the right. It seemed to described my exgf pretty accurately. The first woman I was seriously interested in after I broke up with my exgf was also a nurse who had a lot of similarities to my exgf.
There were several threads on nurses in The Forum.
Its not cluelessness; its feigned innocence with just a slight ‘wink’ of some kind to let you know they know what they’re doing. We call this type of person a sociopath. Serial killers like Bundy & Gacey smiled in court & charmed their victims. In fact, they were highly adept at lowering their victims defenses (Bundy feigned a broken arm to receive assistance in changing a ‘flat tire’, then lured them to remote areas). They know what they’re doing and cannot be trusted or feel sorry for them. My ex had a ‘broken arm’ so many times and found my emotional weakspots and vulnerabilities it was like taking candy from a baby.
My ex would throw tantrums when she didnt get her way. Her sister once bought her some expensive shoes just out of kindness and they were slightly the wrong colour (Sorry I’m a brit
. She flew off in a rage and called her sister some awful names until she got the ones she wanted. The gift is not enough they need more than that. They need control.
With these types, it’s definitely not the thought that counts.
Ugh! That sounds like my sister…I tried to help around the with chores and whatnot, but they were never good enough. It was like she was pi**ed because I had done chores without her direction.
I figure she can wash her own damn dishes these days…after all, she’s the only one who knows how to do it the right way!
One of the biggest fights my BPD X and I ever had, and the one that started the for-good breakup process, was one time when I was trying to be helpful and I loaded the dishwasher for her. She had a hissy fit, followed by a two-day sulk, because I put the utensils in the basket handles up instead of down.
Wow Mellari. That sounds exactly like something my ex would have said. She told me in regards to our break up that I had done ‘nothing wrong’. We were playing a game that we never had a chance of winning. The harder we tried the quicker and heavier we lost.
“The only way to win is not to play.” – Joshua the computer, “War Games”
I will be telling myself that everyday from now on.
The corollary to this is the tit-for-tat, even-Steven, fairsy-squaresy posture my NPD wife takes to perceived offenses and oversights. If you do something to offend her, she will retaliate in kind just so you know how it feels. She actually won’t do housework unless I am also doing housework. Explains why she can’t unload the dishwasher while I’m at the office.
Explains why she can’t unload the dishwasher while I’m at the office.
Priceless.
“Love does not keep score” – I Corinthians 13 (paraphrased)
Ugh. My STBX would do the same thing. Highly unpleasant shall we say.
Personal Excerpts
1.
I bought a electronic dart game for her 10 years old two days before I was forced to leave the country again. She had not followed through, and I wasted another three months waiting on her to divorce, while already living together with her and her child, the husband had moved out.
I spent my last money on this gift, and I stood in the rook where I installed it for her kiddo, and tried it out, electronics and all to see if it was working properly. She came in, saw this, and said:
“You did not buy this for G. you bought this for yourself really, didn’t you ?”
48 hours later my fight left back to Europe
2.
On her first visit, where I met her child for the first time as well, he was described to me as devils offspring, requires daily medication of course! Nothing was wrong with that kiddo, nothing, he just lacked love and a real childhood, nothing else, but a BDP/NDP mother truly left her marks. I showed him how to sit on a horse close his eyes, spread his arms out and feel the animals power and well, it was an exercise in building trust.
Later I bought a horse for them. Not that I could really afford to do that, but I did.
Two weeks later she announced in a hatred temper that she gives this horse away to my ‘best friend” who would always have such good advise for me. She was jealous on a distant online friendship with someone I had never met in person, but who I knew long before her, and she knew that this would hurt me terrible.
My distant friend could not believe what happened, and of course, she did not take the horse. She stayed on the farm instead.
3.
Three months ago, and 15 years later. We are back in contact, reading Dr T and others and educating myself has helped me gain some better understanding.
I offered her a gift, and she reacted: “I will only accept that if you accept xyz in return.”
Unconditional gifts are impossible, it has to be “Tit for Tat”, and guess what, unconditional love, giving sharing, caring…. they are incapable of.
Conclusion:
If you find yourself having a feeling in your lower stomach area as a result of someone treating you in certain ways, and that is a very specific feeling indeed, it can even creep up to your heart and eventually fill you entire body with a form of agony, anger and despair,….
…My friend, you are being attacked by covert abuse and if you were love bombed by that person before, you are very much endangered to walk down a road of self destruction, yes, self destruction you heard that right, because it is in your power to stop that, no one else but you!
Walk that road long enough, and you will witness the disintegration of your personality, your integrity and dignity will burn away in flames of agony while you are clutching at straws about the good times you had with her or him. Rest assured, they will never return.
Best
Shadow
Wow I just joined this site, and Shadow your “conclusion” really hit home with me. I have been in an on again off again relationship who exhibits many traits of BPD. It has destroyed me, that feeling in the stomach you are talking about has consumed me and my self destruction has been going on for a long time now. I have lived on the edge, stressed out every single day because of her, I never know who I am going to get from one day to the next.
It has been awful, I had to always be careful about what I say, and don’t say. I had to put up with her rages, her pushing, pulling me away, the silent treatment, abuse, threats, me being blamed for everything, never being trusted. But then I’ll get the “I love you”, “I miss you”. But they never last, and I am blamed once again.
It has destroyed my self esteem, made me question my sanity, I have acted out in ways I never thought I would, embarrassed myself, lost my self respect, dignity, and integrity.
2 days ago I did something that apparently pissed her off, something so minor that it would not bother a normal person or a normal person would talk about it. She raged on me told me I was playing games and that she doesn’t love me, or want me anymore. Well I snapped and told her exactly what i thought of her and what my family thinks of her. How she is not welcome because they have seen the damage she has done to me over the last 2 years. Her only response was “LOL”.
They have no idea what they do and are in such denial its scary. Anyway i just wanted to say thanks for posting that, it is exactly how i feel and have been the last 2 years. Today is a new day and I am hoping she will never come back this time, I won’t let her.
Hi Lateralus,
Welcome to Shrink4Men. I’m sorry to read that you continue to allow yourself to be drawn back into such an unhealthy and abusive relationship.
Don’t be so quick to believe your on-again-off-again girlfriend doesn’t know what she’s doing or can’t help her behavior. Can she be nice and non-abusive towards others? If so, then she does Know how to behave herself when it’s in her best interests. These individuals seem to take most of their poison out on those who love them, because they know that you’ll take it.
A friend on a support forum I belong to found the quote below on a confessional site. Seems to me this woman knows exactly what she’s doing, knows it’s wrong and just keeps keeping on:
Chilling and, in my opinion, a self-pitying sociopath.
Tara said: Chilling and, in my opinion, a self-pitying sociopath.
Allow me another possible angle Tara.
She said: I have been fucked up for a long time since I experienced some traumatic things aged 11-12. From that period onwards I have been desperate to make people love me, to validate me…
Now, this could be two things, a lie as well, or not, lets assume for a moment it is true.
It is entirely possible that traumatic events that are untreated can change a person, we know this. Choosing to be a liar is of course just that, a choice, but are our choices always free choices? No they are not, they are determined in many ways, externalities and internalization of childhood patterns can play a strong role.
Some people can only act and react within their limitations, and some limitations might just be so severe that they are extremely restricted in their ways.
Correct me if I am wrong but I intend to think that:
1. Persons with such a condition do not experience lasting contentedness or happiness, neither do they experience true growth as a person – or a couple – as they are blocked from gaining meaningful insights about matters and miracles of life, these experiences of course remain individual, as we all are individual. Shallow emotions is their world.
2. They constitute what I would describe a stagnated personality, tragic is that they find rewards for their behavior in our somewhat poor societal context that is focussed on consumerism, hence they experience a positive feedback for their ways of using people. I intent to think that a lot of politicians and highly “successful” people are exhibiting such character traits as well, and in a way, as I learned that professionals noted an increase of victims of such abusers, it reflects a level self destruction our western stress hyped, competition insane and productivity focussed societies at large exhibit increasingly. Lack of true empathy is rampant.
From my perspective, therapists are challenged and required to better understand the underlying reasons for such a development form sociological and psychological perspective. Putting my science hat on, it would not be satisfying to leave it a they just are and chose to be this way level. There are reasons for that, and they are reasons not understood.
Lateralus,
I am not sure if I understand, first you say… 2 days ago I did something that… and at the end you say…Today is a new day and I am hoping she will never come back this time, I won’t let her… It indicates to me that she left you. If this is the case, I hope you can use the space you have right now to make up your mind how you want to spend the next two years.
Let me add this from very personal insights, to be alive, to feel the warmths of the sun on your skin, snowflakes melting on your face, to see that red stag with impressive antlers passing your way, then standing still and looking right at you, to dive with a whale shark, being speechless for hours after that, or to observe the tiniest naked sea snails in awe of they amazing colors, to see the Golden eagle in the morning soaring the skies, a pregerine falcon it insane speed sky diving for his prey, or watch these ants marching in the grass, all this is around you wherever you are.
Last year I found a dead dolphin on my beach, his partner stayed in the bay for 17 days mourning her loss, eh swam in circles in the same are, and I stayed with her every day. After a while she got accustomed to me presence and closed the distance, think of me being an oddball if you like – grin- but I started talking to her, and she was listening and “responding”, not that I understood what she responded but this was indeed communication, and there was an understanding.
On the day where I returned looking for her and when I realized she was gone, a deep sadness engulfed me, but not for long, and I sat there alone and smiled.
Life has many miracles, pain is inevitable and part of life and growth, but there is also pain that is unnecessary.
Had the dolphin stayed for two years in this bay? No her love was dead.
Perhaps this is a way to think about what you experience when I ask you, is your both love well and alive?
All my best
Shadow
Shadow
First of all that was a great story about the dolphin, and very inspiring post.
Yes she left again, I have lost count how many times that is, but this time is different I don’t have that urge to beg for her to come back and act like I have lost the love of my life. I am just tired and sick of feeling like shit all the time. I have lost so much of myself and have become something I don’t want to be.
I have been in therapy for the last 5 months and things are going well, and I think this time it will be different, it feels different, I don’t want anything to do with her. I want to enjoy those simple pleasures in life you described, I haven’t been able to enjoy anything the last year specifically when things have been really bad. I am starting next week going away to the cottage for the week to get some much needed relaxation and perspective.
Again really enjoyed your posts.
Sounds to me as if you are on your way. I am glad to hear that you have help as well, really!
I know too well how it feels if no help is available at all, and you are left with nothing but ruins and yes, it can completely ruin every last inch of your physical and psychological wellbeing and more, this form of abuse can be truly life threatening in it’s ultimate expression!
You have not lost the love of your life at all, try to remember this in weak moments. You more than likely had invested a lot of heart into it, but these people have not the same emotional investment into you at all, they can drop you in a heartbeat and find the next one in a matter of days.
True commitment, devotion and love requires a mature person, and not “a child masquerading in an adult body” to rephrase Tara.
Last but not least, you have not lost anything of yourself, I do not believe that, it just feels this way right now, but your true inner self, it is still there, just buried under unnecessary pain, and the more layers of this pain will disappear, the more your true inner self will remerge.
Go and treat yourself to something you like doing, have a good time at your cottage and enjoy life to the maximum, it is too short to be wasted on people, sorry for being blunt, who are only up their own ass, and this they are indeed.
Best
Shadow
Lateralus, that was a touching story. However, there is something you need to do. Just hoping that your ex won’t be back in contact with you is futile — she will, and she will attempt to hoover you back. It’s guaranteed. You need to take positive steps now to cut yourself off from contact with her. Start with getting your phone number and email changed. If it’s practical for you, move — you don’t have to move far away, but just some place other than the last place she saw you. There are psychological and practical reasons for this. The psychologica reason is that you need a fresh start, something to change to shake up your life and start to get you out of the bad patterns that your life has fallen into. The practical reason is that even if she finds out where you are now living, it’ll be a lot easier to get a restraining order if you are someplace where she has never been.
Think about changing up some of your usual behavior patterns. One trap a lot of us have fallen into is that we get rid of one abusive Cluster B, only to wind up with another one because we are engaging in activities and hanging out in places where we meet a lot of Cluster B’s. Try to get involved in something that will start introducing you to a better class of people.
Hey cousin Dave
Thanks for the reply. I am hoping to actually move in the next few months, just waiting to hear about a job interviewed for. I definitely need to make some changes in my life, I do feel like I am in a rut or stuck and this “relationship” has just drained me of everything. I am ready to live my life.I was thinking about when I first met her how I was. I was confident, fit, full of life, if you saw me today you wouldn’t believe me, I want that back!!!!
I also want to change up my patterns as well, I tend to push good people who want to be with me and are healthy and cling to these disordered types. It is something I am addressing in therapy, I do realized have a lot to work on myself and have been and will continue to commit to therapy and fixing some issues.
Thanks for the reply
Welcome to the party, pal! Based on your screenname, I take it you’re a Maynard James Keenan fan?
Thanks for the welcome, and ya huge fan, just visited his winery in Arizona last month was very cool!
So very, very true, Shadow. Thank you. Why are you back in contact and not running as fast as you can in the opposite direction?
To answer your question would not fit into a public forum.
However, to the readers here, I would not ever recommend you to do what I am doing. I am a somewhat more than average strong person, and I have been through many hells in my life that most people would find incomprehensible, and I am still kicking. I have witnessed tragedies, abuse of many kinds and death on levels that are more than enough to ruin your wellbeing for many days and nights just by listening to these experiences.
If you are confronted with her / him many years later, please, do take Tara’s advice, seriously, run as fast as you can in the opposite direction!
Do not be fooled by thinking that:
1. Finding closure of injuries sustained would be possible, they will never admit the slightest wrong doing, even 15 years later, despite overwhelming evidence
2. Reuniting with a “fantasy” is possible, you are more than likely fed again this “fantasy” by her / him tantalizing you, grooming you again to just wage another round of psychological warfare on you.
Don’t get me wrong, while you might have felt sincere and pure love for this person, you need to ask a serious question at some stage, and you owe this honesty to yourself!
Now that you are aware that all these things that happened to you were for reasons of covert abuse and a person with, shall we say, character deficiencies, do you still feel love for this person or is it something else?
Of course it is something else, this is no love, this is clutching with your fingernails to something you wanted to be true, but that never manifested. You can not truly love a person that mistreats you, this is nothing but a Stockholm syndrome, but true love it is not.
Love is a two way street, and if you are the only one on the giving end, it is not love.
My husband’s former stepson– who was regarded as my husband’s son until he showed his true colors– once described to us an argument he’d had with his mother, my husband’s ex-wife. The ex and her family are LDS, and young men are expected to go on two year missions. My husband had converted to Mormonism with his ex, mainly to keep the peace. He later abandoned the church.
As former stepson grew older, he decided he no longer wanted to be a part of the church. He especially didn’t want to go on a mission. He told his mother and she said, “But if you leave the church and don’t go on a mission, [my husband] wins!”
I have also noticed the ex does everything in her power to creatively retaliate whenever she feels like she’s been slighted. It’s always in a way that is supposedly either to prove the other party wrong or teach them a lesson. She also really enjoys driving wedges in relationships.
This article was particularly insightful. Well done, Dr. T!
Hi knotheadusc and thank you.
Your husband’s ex’s reaction also proves that PAS is real and that these types use their kids as weapons in their sick war.
The odd thing is that when this happened, none of the kids were even talking to my husband. It was around that time that ex stepson, who had recently turned 18, decided he wanted to move out of his mother’s house and move to another state. My husband was paying him child support, even though legally he wasn’t the boy’s father.
Ex called my husband and pretty much ordered him to talk her son out of moving away. She even told him she wanted him to cut off the child support. My husband refused and the young man moved out for about a year. This is when the shit really hit the fan…
Not long after the boy moved out, Ex had my husband’s daughters write letters disowning him and demanding that he give them up for adoption to their current stepdad (ex’s third husband). She sent a bunch of packages of personal items she had kept since their divorce six years prior, along with a neatly typed inventory of everything and made sure they were delivered restricted delivery. She sent her own hate filled letter and adoption forms for my husband to sign if he was so inclined. She added that if he did intend to sign, she hoped he would let her know so she and her husband could save up the money for the adoption fees.
My husband had a few years of contact with ex-stepson, but it turned out ex-stepson was just using him for money. When he was confronted about his intentions, he got all indignant and quit talking to us. We haven’t heard from him in three years. I’ve enjoyed the silence.
My husband didn’t sign the adoption papers, though now that his daughters are young adults, it appears that maybe she went ahead and got them adopted anyway. My husband’s stepmom said she’d seen something online from the stepdad indicating that he intended to adopt my husband’s girls. If that’s what will bring them peace, I guess it’s okay… but I get the sense it’s just one last “f-you” to my husband. And one day, they will sincerely regret it.
I guess the one positive in all of this is that the ex pretty much leaves us alone… at least for now. I’ve come to believe that she puts provocative stuff on the Internet, hoping we’ll read it and engage her.
“No, you didn’t paint it for me. You painted it and then you gave it to me.”
This line summarizes it all for me. Wow!
What saved me to a large degree from going crazy was understanding this behaviour – and adapting to it. Perhaps I can equate it to a crappy job that you can decide to grumble and complain the whole time your doing it or you can figure out a way to enjoy yourself a little and get the work done.
With my ex it hasn’t been a case of just not playing the game, it has been a case of keeping her off guard by mixing things up.
When we were together if she did something like withhold sex I would keep track of for how long and then double it the other direction with me withholding.
If she was freaking out because she wanted me to do something I would agree – let her win – but then later would do what I wanted to do and when she came screaming would say to her – hang on that’s what you said you wanted me to do.
When it came to court time every time she threatened me with court issues, I would make a point of actually getting my lawyer to send paperwork to her side with new issues.
As far as time with our daughter goes I regularly make soft comments about schedule and leave it and later have her tell me the same thing as though its what she expects.
When she starting freaking about money in the courts – I went back to College for three years. When my 6 year old starting asking questions about when I was done school (questions fed by mom) I decided to go another year to get my university degree. I knew this caused so much craziness for her and those around her about a month later her boyfriend started asking me about my plans – I confirmed with him about going to university and then added that maybe another year after that for teacher’s college – give them some more to chew on.
The judge loved it when I volunteered from day 1 to pay for dental, dance, prescriptions for my daughter (things I’d pay for anyway). I made it a point of having my lawyer note that in court and that she had refused to give me receipts so I could reimburse her – That stopped her from ranting in court about money because she looked like an idiot trying to convince even her own lawyer that she wasn’t getting enough financially.
Now these days I also at times intentionally get in a two minute heated exchange with her about an issue that doesn’t matter with me, so she can spend a week ranting and freaking out on her own time with her crazy family so that when an issue important to me and my daughter does come up she’s still so focused and wound up about winning the first issue I can relent on it to get what I really want by doing a “compromise”! She thinks she’s winning.
I can also say removing all my anger from any interaction and talking in a matter of fact tone at all times is a necessity her – like going to a crappy job I’ve chosen to do what I have to do – get through the next shift – so I can enjoy the rest of my life.
Looks like your approach is working for you and the kids, Lebrocq, which is all that matters. It sucks that you have to go through such machinations just to have some peace, though. Unfortunately, that is often what is required.
GTFO. That’s all I can say. Seriously. Otherwise it will peck away at you and your health WILL deteriorate.
Dr. Daniel Amen calls it “scarcity thinking.” There is only so much in this world, and i have to get ‘mine.’ If someone else has something I want, that means there is less in the world for me to get.
I experienced this with both the ex-h and Mother figure – gifts ALWAYS had strings attached (“you must forgive me / put up with my abuse b/c I spent money on you”). I have for as long as I can remember, had a hard time accepting gifts.
When with the ex, I likened it to being on a see-saw…in order to bring himself ‘up’ he had to bring me ‘down’ (put me in my place). I hated the feeling of him seeming to see me as an adversary rather than as a partner.
Scarcity thinking is a very good term, TGI.
I’m the same way. I had trouble accepting gifts because they could always be taken away if I displeased, and since it didn’t seem to reconcile with the put-downs, I felt that there needed to be an “exchange” in order for me to feel deserving.
It feels sometimes like my husband’s ex has that scarcity thinking about her children’s love. Somehow, I am a threat to her if they feel positively about me, as if there’s only so much love in their hearts.
Yeah, a great point about scarcity thinking is that they’ll think that way even about things that are complely intangible, like compliments. If you give someone else a compliment, that’s a compliment that the NPD/BPD didn’t get!
Good article. They’re obsessed with letting you know how right they are. They smother you with it! I swear, it’s like they think they’re going to drop dead if they actually have to say “I was wrong.” And they must rub it in when they “win”. I always felt like they were constantly competing against me instead of connecting. They tried to trick me into thinking that I was the one initiating the game, and they really wanted me to envy how “right” they were. If I didn’t care that they were “right” and they could see that, then they would tell me that I was “obviously mad” at them anyway. Again, they had to be envied at all times. They were quick to point out what I was doing “wrong,” and always tried to trick me into thinking I was worthless. These people are egotistical bulldozers.
Yes amoeba, they gloat and rub your face in their ‘win’. Even when we concede & let them win. Then comes the invalidation – sometimes subtle, sometimes overt – but it comes – and invalidating you is a way of emotionally killing you. Do a web search on ‘invalidation’ it will be very helpful for you.
Dr. T is onto something here – true neutrality is the only way to win. Its like being in an emotional Switzerland…and there you find some peace & serenity.
Also, like Switzerland during WWII, I recommend you lock down your borders and be prepared to blow them up when these types try to breach them.
Touche! Fortunately, we are not fixed countries and we can physically remove ourselves from the war, but mining the boundaries with ‘explosives’ sure is a good way to help reinforce the boundaries.
OMG….if I had a dollar for every time I’ve said this exact, same thing. How about a sincere apology that showed regret or remorse? They will INSIST that you apologize and if you don’t, the war is on. But, asking them to do so or to admit they are wrong is so utterly foreign to them it boggles the imagination.
The whole mindset is astonishing in its immaturity. I’ve apologized so many times for the sake of marital harmony I lost myself…as cliche as that sounds.
As an aside, for years my wife insisted on marriage counseling. But, I continued to have this little blinking red light in the back of my head that said, “don’t fall for it”. I couldn’t shake the nagging feeling that what she really wanted was to be professionally validated so as to achieve the coupe de grace with me. Not just to win…but to TAKE. To crush. To win at any cost.
Finally, I relented…but steeled myself for the assault. I cannot remember a time when I was more resolute. At our first counseling session, I listened as best as I could for maybe half an hour. Invariably, the tears and the crying came. I explained that this was one of the lynch pin issues for me. I viewed her use of crying as emotional rape and couldn’t take it any more. Of course, any time I did that, I was insensitive and “unfeeling”.
Then came the magic word. Change. I was going to be asked to “change”….again. And, that’s when I lost it. Just went completely bat shit insane. I had had it with changing….with always being the one to “change”. It was like trying to do a moon shot with a pop bottle rocket. I said, point blank, “I am not changing…not one thing….not one iota….this isn’t “my” issue…it’s hers…and I’m sick of owning it. If we divorce TODAY….I’m not moving a millimeter”. And, with that, I got up and walked out. But, not without a parting shot from the counselor who said as my hand touched the door knob, “You’re driving her away…”, to which I responded, “That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard….you’ll see”. Then I left. Terrified. Drained. Afraid of divorce. Afraid of failure. Enraged. Alone.
My wife remains in counseling a year later and, after almost 19 years of marriage, I have to admit she’s gotten….better. Occassionally, I feel the old monster raising its head. The co-opting of observations to fit their agenda, the crying, the insistence on being right, the overwhelming need to win at any cost (I’ve said that to her so many times), the sickening cycle of accusing me of accusing her of accusing me, the utter refusal to apologize. It’s all there. I just hope and assume she is learning coping skills and getting counseled on exactly how crazy she has been for her entire life.
Hello and welcome to S4M, duhwinning. Good for you for taking a stand in couples counseling. In my opinion, couples counseling with someone like your wife just doesn’t work. They typically snow an already female biased, emotional reasoning therapist into using therapy to enable their continued abuse.
Thank you, Dr. Palmatier. I’ve lurked in the shadows for a year. The counselor was/is female. I had this sinking feeling that the score was settled before I ever got there. Whether that was the case or not, it was in the back of my mind. Maybe this caused me to be overly defensive. Either way, something changed in that moment. I think my wife saw that, for me, this was it. This was THE white-hot moment of truth for me and I wasn’t going to back down. I hate to admit this, but I saw it as an opportunity to turn her presumed win into my turning of the tide. I don’t think I’ll ever forget the way I felt. It was as if everything…family, career, self…was on the line and I was looking for a hard eight.
A few weeks ago, something happened and she brought up marriage counseling again. And, I knew, “it” was about to happen. It’s as if you are powerless to stop it. It’s like a tidal wave. No matter how much intellect, wit, wisdom or just plain old smarts you have, they are so adept at it that you can’t consider all the variables in a few moments of time.
I want and strive to be a good husband. A good father. Honest and respectable. Sincere and caring. I’ve come to the point in my life that I don’t feel weird about admitting my flaws, shortcomings or weaknesses. Yet, nor do I feel weird about admitting the things I get right or do well.
I say all that to say this; “this” isn’t….me. It’s just simply not me. For years, I labored under the delusion that I must be able to do something more to “fix” it. Think more. Act differently. Compromise more. Stop being such a….man? I finally arrived at the conclusion that no matter what I did, it was never going to get better and I had to be willing to bet the farm on one roll of the dice, win or lose.
Maybe…just maybe…we will be a success story. I hope that is the case. But, for those others that are lurking out there as I did for a year, I would say this; don’t look for the differences in the stories of others, look for the similarities. Don’t continue to fool yourself into thinking that “those guys” on there have worse situations that yours. Message boards like this, by their very nature, preclude the long, drawn-out entire story from being told. My personal story is 16 full pages in a Word document. I could never hope to post it all here.
Why do you stay, duhwinning? How old are your children?
My children are 8 and 10. My childhood sucked, having been replete with all the typical dysfunction and substance abuse and hatred. Ask any child…I can’t think of a single one, including myself, who would pull out the old saw that so many adults use today; they should have split up years ago….the kids would be better off. That is a line of BS that has been perpetuated in order to justify selfish attitudes and an unwillingness to compromise over the past 50 years. I like to call it the baby boomer syndrome.
Call me old fashioned or deluded. I stay because, in spite of her craziness, I genuinely love her. I value her. I value family. For all of her foibles, she is a fabulous mother. We, together, get alot of things right.
That is one of the confounding side-bar issues to many of these stories, in my opinion. Many of these women are likely great moms, excellent daughters (?), beloved aunts and sisters. Some are consistent in their craziness, I’m sure. But, perhaps like my wife, some of them seem to focus their craziness on their husband/significant other and leave most others alone.
I stay because I’m stubborn and it would be a real success story to see her get the therapy she needs to make the changes she’s capable of. Because my sons need her…and frankly, so do I. I just don’t need “this”…any more.
Maybe some day my sons will expose me for the liar I have been about this. Maybe they will say, “dad…she was an unrepentant bitch….you should have left long ago”. Maybe they will prove wrong all of my beliefs about divorce. But, the hope of future success, and their well being, is more powerful than the need to be…right.
DW: In other words, (IMO), you are deluding yourself, swiftly swimming down D’Nile (Denial).
Re your comment, “I can’t think of a single one, including myself, who would pull out the old saw that so many adults use today; they should have split up years ago….the kids would be better off. That is a line of BS that has been perpetuated in order to justify selfish attitudes and an unwillingness to compromise over the past 50 years. I like to call it the baby boomer syndrome.”
THAT comment from you, my friend, IS BS. My parents are the two most dysfunctional people who have an unholy union never sanctified by things of God. She is an NPD (per my exhaustive internet and book research), he is an immature philanderer (a point she notes to her children–among his other deficiences–every chance she gets). 40+ years (with emotionally crippled adult children, no money in the bank, reverse mortgage, and one spouse working at age 74 with zero retirement plans in place) = ‘Success’ – Malarky!!
When you are a child with one crazy abusive parent who praises you in public but then becomes “Mommy Dearest” behind closed doors, and another who is emotionally and physically unavailable (OTR truck driver),who is there to turn to? From whom do you learn what a healthy relationship look like? How the hell can you possiby get into an adult relationship where you play neither the target nor the perpetrator of abuse? EVERYTHING I have EVER learned about so-called healthy relationships, I have learned from a book or from therapy…and from doing the near-opposite of what my parents did in any given situation.
By staying in a dysfunctional relationship, you are teaching your children that love and commitment mean staying with an unrepentent bitch / *sshole, no matter what damage has been done to their own physical, emotional, spiritual and financial health. I challenge you to be brutally honest with your answer to this question: Is the relationship you had/have with your wife the kind you wish for your children? Why and Why Not? Would your spiritual guide (God, etc.) want that for his/her precious children?
In addition, I offer the following:
1. http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/letter-from-an-adult-child-of-cluster-b-personality-disorder-parents-the-damage-done/
2. Other Link: 10 Lies Men Tell Themselves In Order to Stay in Emotionally Abusive Relationships with their Wives or Girlfriend
3. Can an Abusive Borderline Personality Disorder Woman Really Change?
May 31, 2010 shrink4men Leave a comment Go to comments
4. http://www.divorcehope.com/
5. How To Tell They are Not Changing Their Abusive Behavior
http://www.rhiannon3.net/cs/howtotell.html
6. Love and Stockholm Syndrome:
The Mystery of Loving an Abuser
http://counsellingresource.com/quizzes/stockholm/index.html
7. Kirschbaum, Mira, Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay pp 199, paragraphs 3,4 (1996), Plum Publishing
8. Lastly, an official Canadian document on the abuse of men by their female partners:
“An abusive environment harms children
now and in their future.
Sometimes people abused by their partners think their children do not know about the abuse or that the abuse does not harm the children. But children are harmed, even if they are not directly abused.
Being exposed to anger and violence affects children’s brain development.
· Brain scans show that children in abusive environments use much of their brain to watch out for danger. Less of their brain is available for healthy growth and development
· This affects their physical, emotional and mental development
· It affects their ability to form healthy relationships
· It affects them even when the children are not consciously aware of the abuse
in their home
When a child is in a threatening environment over time, such as in a home where the adults are abusive, systems in the child’s brain undergo changes. These changes result in emotional, behavioural, intellectual and physical symptoms.
Children can show all the same signs of trauma as if they were abused themselves.”
Read that last sentence again.
Resource: Men Abused by Women in Intimate Relationships,
Alberta Children and Youth Services
Prevention of Family Violence and Bullying
3rd Floor, Sterling Place
9940 – 106 Street
Edmonton, AB T5K 2N2
Family Violence Info Line: 310-1818
http://www.familyviolence.alberta.ca
Touche GirlInside. Thanks I needed this reminder of why I left my ex.
You are so right, GirlInside! My friend stayed with a PD “for the sake of the children” only to see his now-grown children suffer from various psychological problems as a direct result of daily exposure to their high conflict relationship. His youngest told him he knew from the age of 10 that the relationship was toxic and he wished his parents had divorced long before they did. Painful for a man to hear after sacrificing decades of his own life trying to “do the right thing.”
Yes, it does seem like it’s physically impossible for them to speak the words, “I was wrong.” Kind of like the Fonz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwkU8-d1gIk
Remember the ads for the movie “Westworld”? “… Where nothing can possibly go worng!”
Dr. T.,
I always find it amazing just how well you describe my ex. For my ex, there was no such thing as compromise. She had to win. If we ever had a disagreement, the only acceptable solution was that I was wrong and she was right. There was no give and take. I was always told that I needed to compromise, but after a while I realized that I was the only one who EVER made a concession. The only acceptable solution was when she won and I lost. It also couldn’t be a little win, it had to complete and total annihilation. If I had a difference of opinion on something, the only acceptable resolution would have to end with me saying that I was completely and totally wrong and lastly apologizing repeatedly for ever having had that thought in the first place!
I was often belittled or made fun of by my ex. If anyone spoke highly of me or offered me praise, they were belittled or discredited. She also made it a point to isolate me from those people. She especially hated anyone who would stick up for me.
My ex also viewed a kind or charitable act as somehow diminishing the person doing the kind act. The only way it could be ok would be if by doing this kind act, she could receive praise or recognition for it.
Sadly, I suffered through several years of marriage, trying to make my marriage work with this dysfunctional person. The fact that she knew that I really wanted to make the marriage work was used as a weapon to abuse and take advantage of me. There were early red flags and signs that I either ignored or did not take seriously enough. I didn’t experience the full wrath of this campaign until our son was born. At that point, she had her insurance policy. She achieved her financial security. She knew that I loved our son and this could be played as the ultimate weapon to her advantage.
I have a question for you. Some BPD/NPD individuals are also highly functioning. My ex knew how to behave in public. She knew right from wrong, socially acceptable from socially unacceptable. She knew that the things that she did were wrong. She knew better to hide them well. My question to you, is this almost the definition of evil? To know was is right and what is wrong and to choose to harm and hurt other people very purposely and knowingly isn’t this just evil? Please don’t confuse this with someone who might be very low functioning that has no ability to control them self or discern right and wrong. I realize that this is a pretty strong statement. I’ve given this a fair amount of thought. I’m not seeing a whole lot of difference from this behavior and that of a Sociopath?
Thank you for helping me understand the crazy world that I was in. You helped me escape that nightmare.
Thanks again,
George
“I’m not seeing a whole lot of difference from this behavior and that of a Sociopath?”
There are reasons for that:
•Rethinking Female Sociopathy, Part One (January 4, 2012)
•Rethinking Female Sociopathy, Part Two (January 13, 2012)
Thanks for the references to those earlier articles. They were both spot on. If I may summarize, the reason that I don’t see a lot of difference between BPD/NPD behavior and Sociopathic behavior, is because there really isn’t much difference! Thanks for the info.
Somewhere, Dr. T refererred to Borderlines as “bumbling sociopaths.” I don’t remember if it was in one of the blogs itself or in one of her comments.
Hi george,
I am glad you escaped the nightmare, too. How are things with you and your son. If memory serves, your ex was waging quite the parental alienation campaign. Is she still at it?
Things with me personally are going well, but they aren’t so good with my son. I’d like to tell you that things are going well with my son, but that wouldn’t be entirely true. My ex is still waging quite the parental alienation campaign. She has also been very successful with her campaign. At this point, I’m actually very discouraged. I have tried my best with the family court system, but I found that they actually are great enablers of this bad behavior. I am trying to work with my son’s court ordered psychologist, but he really doesn’t want to really deal with the problem. He will agree that “many of the behaviors that my ex and my son exhibit are consistent with that of a BPD waging a parental alienation campaign.” He’ll go on to say that because my son is 16 and closely aligned with his mother, he doesn’t think that the court system will do anything. “No judge will take away her child from her, no matter how bad she is.” He advises me is to just try to stay a part of my son’s life and hopefully when he goes off to college, he’ll be able to think for himself, mature, and we will be able to patch things up. What frustrates me is that the behavior is going on under the nose of this court ordered psychologist, yet he refuses to do anything about it. I’m not saying that he doesn’t know what’s going on. Quite to the contrary, he does know what’s going on, but he doesn’t want to call my ex on her bad behavior or present the issue in court. Sadly, when a parental alienation campaign is allowed to fester and take root for so long, at this point in time my son is also a willing participant. As terrible as it sounds, I am truly considering that it might be better for me to not have a relationship with my son if it is only going to be an abusive relationship with inappropriate behavioral boundaries. I wouldn’t tolerate this type of relationship with any other person in my life. I don’t know if I can express just how gut wrenching a decision like this is. It tears me apart on the inside. It’s really sad to see my son who I have loved his whole life turn into a weapon against me. I find it terrible that my ex could find it acceptable to use my son as a weapon and take advantage of the fact that she knows that I love him.