Comments from the Edge: What your NPD/BPD Says vs. What She Means
Every week, at least one self-identified BPD and/or Golden Uterus sends an email or tries to post a comment taking me to task for warning people to be wary of personal relationships with individuals with Borderline, Narcissistic, Histrionic and/or sociopathic traits. Interestingly, I only receive messages from self-identified BPDs, concern trolls (see below), and stay-at-home-moms who are angry about the articles Why Your Wife’s Excuses for Not Working Are Lame, The Real Reason your Wife Doesn’t Want to Work and Hostile Dependence: Is your Wife, Girlfriend or Ex a Child Masquerading in the Body of a Woman?
I never hear from self-identified narcissists, sociopaths and histrionics, well, until recently. A few weeks ago, I received an email from a self-identified histrionic woman, which will be the subject of it’s very own future article, Self-Pitying Sociopaths.
Over the years, I’ve noticed several themes and patterns in these messages:
1. Concern Trolls. These messages are from women who feel compelled to warn me about how “dangerous” it would be if the information on Shrink4Men fell into the “wrong hands.” Typically, these comments go something like this: “While it’s true some men may be abused, have you ever considered what would happen if your posts fell into the wrong hands? What if an abusive man found your articles and used them to abuse his wife?”
Um, you mean like what can and does happen with the glut of domestic violence websites and resources that solely focus on female victims and male perpetrators? Tell you what, I’ll take down my information when the female abuse victim-focused websites do, m’kay?
Another variation on this theme is a certain kind defensive comment from women who want me to know that, “Men can be abusive, too! Why do you only focus on male victims?!” Whenever I receive this particular comment, my eyes roll so hard they have to do a wind-up first. One has to wonder if the women who express this concern are so self-obsessed that they have neglected to notice the abject lack of resources for men and boys who are victims of emotional, physical and social violence? By the way, that was a rhetorical question.
2. Don’t paint all BPDs with the same brush! For the record, I don’t paint all individuals with Borderline Personality Disorder with the same brush. For those individuals who have been diagnosed with BPD and have made the commitment to enter and stay in treatment, I truly wish you the best. It is difficult and painful work with arguable rates of success. Please keep working at it.
What I also do not do is sugarcoat the fact the realities and likely outcomes of treating BPD. Nor do I tell men and women involved with BPDs to be patient, hang in there and hope for the best while they are actively being abused by their BPD partners. Just because a person with BPD enters treatment does not mean it will be effective. It could take years to see improvement, that is, if there is any improvement at all. Meanwhile, the partners and children of these individuals continue to suffer.
3. You’re making ME feel bad about MEEEEE! These BPD individuals acknowledge that they mistreat and abuse their loved ones, but they can’t help it!!!!!! They then go on to tell me how much pain they are in and that is why they hurt others as if this somehow makes their behavior okay. I suspect these individuals haven’t made it to the Why Empathy for Others is a Good Thing component of their therapy yet — or even worse, they have.
4. Accusations that my stance on BPD is “unprofessional.” Basically, this is just a shaming tactic that stems from “You’re making ME feel bad about MEEEEE!”
Yes, it is very unprofessional for a psychologist to be anti-abuse and to have greater sympathy for the victims of abuse rather than the perpetrators of abuse who show paper thin remorse for the abuse they perpetrate. Oftentimes, individuals with this condition are remorseful when they experience natural consequences for their behavior rather than being remorseful for having hurt others — typically when their partner is at the end of his or her rope and wants out.
5. Name-calling and unintelligible gibberish. Self-explanatory.
I rarely publish the Comments from the Edge (*a wonderful phrase coined by CrazyBuster, MicksBabe) I receive for several reasons:
a) Shrink4Men is for the targets of BPD/NPD/HCP/AsPD abuse, not a platform for people with these issues to sound off and to try to garner sympathy while taking no responsibility for themselves.
b) It’s upsetting to read their circular arguments, distortions and blame shifting for many individuals who frequent S4M. They already get enough of that at home and/or from their exes, thank you very much.
c) Publishing these comments would allow these individuals to participate in the discussions here. I tried that once or twice and, frankly, I was appalled, but not surprised, by the hypocrisy, intellectual dishonesty and unwavering lack of empathy for anyone else’s pain other than their own.
d) I get to choose whom I invite into my house and I close the door on individuals who want to enter and take a dump on the carpet.
For those of you who are interested in the inner thought processes of some individuals with BPD, NPD, HPD and full-on sociopathy, I’ve decided to start posting some of their comments here. I suspect the excessive emotionality, name-calling, lack of empathy, blaming and shaming in these comments will be very familiar to many of you.
The following comment is from “Jen.” She posted the same comment 3 times in quick succession. I suspect she didn’t realize that new commenters are held in a moderation queue and became frustrated because, “Dammit! She has a right to express herself!”
Jen commented on Can an Abusive Borderline Personality Disorder Woman Really Change?
THIS IS BULLSHIT!! People with BPD are seriously mentally ill and need serious help. I have had it all my life and before diagnosed went through very violent outbursts in which after I admitted to at a police station as the guilt ads to the hate and disgust people with BPD already feel. There are many different types of BPD she sounds narcissistic to me which is a rare trait with bpd, Imagine the most drunk you’ve ever been to the point you can’t see or understand people, then add the worst experience you’ve ever been through the most soul crushing abandonment and thinking you have nobody, wanting to die but being to scared, and desperately wanting to express yourself but being so emotionally stunted that you are completely unable to even say why you are sad or to explain why your unhappy it LITERALLY WILL NOT COME OUT so it all bottles up, then someone quite innocent says something that a bpd sufferer will completely misunderstand and will get in the firing line, it is literally completely uncontrollable. I often don’t even remember, I can feel myself loosing control and have learnt to try my best to get out of the situation but when you are followed and after begging for them to leave you alone, there’s a certain snapping point. It goes two ways either the person will get abuse or the bpd sufferer them selves will self mutilate this sometimes is the ONLY WAY OUT. Violence is unavoidable with a bpd sufferer but once it gets dangerous the police should be called and this I completely agree with. People with BPD should be honest from the get go with potential partners I always have painted the darkest picture so they no what there taking on and it is then left to the individual to decide to stick it out or not But STUPID IDIOT STEREOTYPES AND ABUSE TO THE PEOPLE WITH THIS SERIOUS mental disease is disgusting and needs to stop would you go abuse people with down syndrome NO so don’t do it to people with bpd there lives are usually a living hell without people like you. Learn a bit about what you chatting about before spreading abuse and chatting S***
Let’s break Jen’s comment down to try to make sense of what she is really saying. My interpretations are speculative, of course, as I have no interest in contacting Jen for subsequent commentary.
Jen writes, “THIS IS BULLSHIT!!” Translation: “I’M ANGRY!!”
“People with BPD are seriously mentally ill and need serious help.” This is very true.
“I have had it all my life and before diagnosed went through very violent outbursts in which after I admitted to at a police station as the guilt ads to the hate and disgust people with BPD already feel.” I could have this wrong, but Jen seems to have thought that telling the police officers who arrested her for her violent outburst that she has BPD should have exempted her from arrest. Translation: “I should not be held accountable for my behaviors.”
“There are many different types of BPD she sounds narcissistic to me which is a rare trait with bpd,” Actually, some degree of narcissism is frequently present in persons with BPD. In fact, this seems to be the norm and not the exception. The higher the degree of narcissism in the BPD, the worse they are and the more untreatable they are. In my experience, this is very common.
“Imagine the most drunk you’ve ever been to the point you can’t see or understand people, then add the worst experience you’ve ever been through the most soul crushing abandonment and thinking you have nobody, wanting to die but being to scared, and desperately wanting to express yourself but being so emotionally stunted that you are completely unable to even say why you are sad or to explain why your unhappy it LITERALLY WILL NOT COME OUT so it all bottles up, then someone quite innocent says something that a bpd sufferer will completely misunderstand and will get in the firing line, it is literally completely uncontrollable.” TRANSLATION: “I am a ticking time bomb. If you cross my path when I am angry, scared, anxious or feeling rejected, abandoned or inferior, I will take my anger, etc., out on you and then expect you to feel sorry for me.”
Many people suffer incredible heartbreak, childhood abuse and catastrophic loss, however, they do not go onto abuse others and expect people to tolerate their abuse because “they hurt, too” and blame everyone else for their unhappiness.
I also object to the “uncontrollable” statement. I have observed many people with BPD. Most are perfectly capable of controlling themselves in public settings, when they are Hoovering and with people that won’t tolerate their crap. They typically reserve their abuse for the people who love and care about them and who they feel “comfortable” abusing (i.e., don’t believe they will experience negative consequences for their bad behavior).
“I often don’t even remember, I can feel myself loosing control and have learnt to try my best to get out of the situation but when you are followed and after begging for them to leave you alone, there’s a certain snapping point.” Translation: “I’m not responsible for my behavior.” Jen appears to disassociate when she goes into her rages. This is not uncommon for many individuals with BPD and/or NPD. Here’s the thing, just because Jen can’t or won’t remember raging at and abusing others, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. It is good that she tries to remove herself from these situations, but she still blames others for her behavior, which is not good.
“It goes two ways either the person will get abuse or the bpd sufferer them selves will self mutilate this sometimes is the ONLY WAY OUT.” Translation: “If I can’t hurt you I will hurt myself.” I also call foul on this one. There are at least two more options. One, the individual gets into treatment, and/or, two, abstains from intimate relationships if they truly cannot control their behavior.
“Violence is unavoidable with a bpd sufferer but once it gets dangerous the police should be called and this I completely agree with.” Actually, not all people with BPD resort to violence. Better be careful with that paintbrush, Jen!
Unfortunately, the problem with calling the police on a violent BPD female is that it is often the non-disordered male who gets led away in handcuffs because the BPD turns on the waterworks when the police arrive. Therefore, if you are with someone like Jen, please follow the ABR rule — Always Be Recording — so the police can arrest the right person.
“People with BPD should be honest from the get go with potential partners I always have painted the darkest picture so they no what there taking on and it is then left to the individual to decide to stick it out or not” I agree with this. In theory, people with BPD should be honest about their condition and warn others away, but many are undiagnosed and both diagnosed and undiagnosed BPDs are too self-serving to be truly honest — even with themselves.
I have received many emails from other BPD individuals who believe they are “entitled” to love, too, no matter how much they hurt anyone who tries to love them. From these individuals, I get some variation on, “It’s like you think all BPDs should lock themselves away from the rest of the world! What about us?! We need love, too!” Actually, if you really can’t control yourself, keeping your distance from others you feel compelled to hurt is probably a good idea. Men who can’t control themselves and hurt others end up in jail. The same is rarely true of women who cannot or will not control themselves.
Please note, Jen does not say she abstains from intimate relationships. She claims she gives potential romantic partners fair warning. If potential partners ignore her warning, does that mean it’s open season on them? Hey fellas (and/or ladies), Jen warned you, so you can’t blame her if she emotionally or physically abuses you.
“But STUPID IDIOT STEREOTYPES AND ABUSE TO THE PEOPLE WITH THIS SERIOUS mental disease is disgusting and needs to stop . . .” Pointing out how abusive many undiagnosed and diagnosed individuals with BPD/NPD are to their partners, family members and friends is not abusive and herein lies the problem. Many individuals with BPD, NPD, HPD and sociopathy cannot tolerate holding the mirror up to themselves. They rage at and blame the mirror for the ugliness and damage they perpetrate. It’s not their fault, it’s the mirror’s fault for reflecting their own behavior back to them.
” . . . would you go abuse people with down syndrome NO so don’t do it to people with bpd there lives are usually a living hell without people like you.” I would no more abuse individuals with Down’s Syndrome than I would individuals with BPD or any other physical malady, developmental delay, mental illness or characterological disorder. Again, pointing out the abusive behavior perpetrated by many individuals with BPD, NPD, etc., is not abusive. Furthermore, comparing Down’s Syndrome to Borderline Personality Disorder is like comparing apples to oranges. They are entirely different things and, to the best of my knowledge, abusing others is not an effect of Down’s Syndrome.
This is a very common strawman argument. I have also gotten, “You wouldn’t advise people to break up with their wife or girlfriend if she had cancer, diabetes, etc., etc. BPD is not like any of these ailments.
“Learn a bit about what you chatting about before spreading abuse and chatting S***” Well Jen told me, didn’t she?
Basically, Jen’s point is, “You must feel sorry for me! I didn’t ask to have BPD! I’m not responsible! I feel guilty after violent outbursts that caused me to be arrested, and feeling guilty about my shitty, violent behavior makes me feel even worse!”
I posted Jen’s comment on the Shrink4Men Forum a few months ago and would like to share a few comments from members who made some excellent observations. One member had this to add:
Many BPDs often use their BPD as a crutch and a scapegoat. “It’s not my fault…I have BPD” Jenny was probably floored when she was arrested. “What? You mean…I’m ACCOUNTABLE? … ummm, does that mean the same thing as entitled? Cuz that’s a word I know well.”
it is literally completely uncontrollable. ——- And yet she says they need serious help? Well what’s the point if it’s “uncontrollable?”
I often don’t even remember, — -Cop out.
I can feel myself loosing control and have learnt to try my best — Learnt to try? Just gave herself an excuse for failure. “well…I TRIED… sheesh! Isn’t that good enough?”
to get out of the situation but when you are followed and after begging for them to leave you alone, there’s a certain snapping point. — They asked for it? I think if I had to guess, I’d guess Jen was the one doing the following.
would you go abuse people with down syndrome NO so don’t do it to people with bpd — Did she just compare a birth defect to a mental defect? Wow!
there lives are usually a living hell without people like you. — Oh if only that were true.
Another forum member writes:
Interesting that NPD in BPDs is so common, I think I finally understand the overlap in symptoms in my mother. I love how they think not even one site on the internet can be a place where they’re not welcome. I don’t go to BPD sites looking for sympathy on being the victim of one. I stick to this site. If they can’t control themselves enough not to meltdown from seeing a site for their victims and are unable to, you know, JUST NOT GO TO THE F*CKIN’ SITE, they need to be locked the f*ck up.
I’m a U2 fan. When I first got internet access I searched for sites on them. I found some anti U2 sites. Did I waste my time and energy on them? No, I just f*ckin’ hit the back browser and went to the fan sites. How f*ckin’ hard is that?
I think this may be related to the compulsion many of them have to control other’s narratives — even complete strangers on the Internet.
Another forum member writes:
The crux of all PD’s is that they lack empathy. Borderlines, Histrionics, Narcissists and Sociopaths (anti-social). They’re all completely self-centered. The only variance is the flavor of self-centeredness. They’re all narcissists. Other people don’t matter to them. Including this nutcase who wanted us all to know why she matters and the rest of us don’t.
I really don’t care how much she or her ilk are “suffering”. By virtue, the amount she suffers is always paltry in comparison to the amount of pain she inflicts.
My toddler pitched one hissy fit. EVER. I don’t buy that Borderlines can’t control themselves. They choose not to control themselves because being out of control gets them what they want. It worked when they were toddlers (because they had parents who didn’t put a cease to that sh*t or enabled it and gave into the screaming brat or ignored it). And the grown Borderline seeks out mate(s) in adulthood who will appease her rather than punish her for throwing fits. It’s a learned behavior, sure. One that can’t be unlearned. But this, IMO, is not the same thing as, “they can’t help it.”
Another BPD survivor (and by survivor I mean someone who got away from their BPD) adds:
If they wanted to be better, they would ask for HELP. They don’t. They insist on enabling, because in their minds, that is help – you are allowing them to do what they want. After all, they are entitled to whatever they want.
I used to be lots nicer about individuals with BPD, NPD, etc. But I have seen the way that the personality disordered are excused more and more over the years. 20 years ago, you kept it quiet, and got yourself help so that you kept your sh*t together. Now, you are allowed to dump your sh*t all over the place, bitch at those who complain about being hit, berate those who don’t pick your sh*t up and carry it for you, kissing your ass all the way.
Um. No. We all have issues. Pick up your own sh*t, carry it yourself, and if you are an ass, take ownership of it. If you don’t, then you get to be scooched away from my life. You are welcome to be your unhelped crazy self – but not near me. You have the right to be an unhelped crazy ass, and I have the right to back the f*ck away and wave the torch in your direction.
Another forum member provides a different theory on the ability of personality disordered individuals to control themselves:
I hear you, but based on my experience, they can control themselves. However, it is an act when they do it–they are imitating an expected behavior, not processing like a healthy adult. In that sense, they are like children, as you noted–they are imitating the right thing to do. Children, however, learn from their imitation of others and eventually incorporate that into their lives. PDIs, not so much.
Although this is probably not a good comparison, it takes tremendous energy on their parts to maintain the facade of controlling themselves. I am an introvert, and depending on the situation, groups of people just wear me out. If the wife has thirty people over to the house (not at all unusual in the old days), I need to take breaks to keep it together, or just focus on people one-on-one. (Meanwhile, she is basking in the attention of a dozen others who are telling her how wonderful she is.) She gets fed, I get wore out. So much for our parties, but I can understand the energy level that is involved in a PDI keeping up appearances, and how when it runs out the need for psychic feeding is incredible, and the games begin. Which is also why those of us that have been close to a PDI are the ones who know the madness, and those who aren’t get the high-energy schmooze job.
So what’s your take on this? Can these individuals control their behavior or not? Does your abusive wife, girlfriend, ex, husband, boyfriend, partner’s ex, mom, dad or sibling have the same excuses, lack of empathy and blame shifting as Jen?
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89 Responses to “Comments from the Edge: What your NPD/BPD Says vs. What She Means”
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Dr T, you’re at your best when you’re crazy-busting!
Thanks, AZ. I try
Got a 2nd article for you too! Will send it over by the end of the week.
Cool. Plan to post the other one toward the end of this week.
Heheh awesome! Need to change the name though, so i’ll ping you a mail about it now.
Nice to have a new post from you, Dr. T! This is a very insightful article. My husband has often told me about his ex wife and her uncontrollable rages… and the things he would put up with in order to avoid them. When the ex tried to force me to spend Christmas with her at my father in law’s house (with her and her current victim actually staying with the in laws), I refused. I later heard that she threw a fit. A couple of years later, she was still blaming me for “ruining Christmas”, even though I wasn’t even there and she had repeatedly claimed that my husband’s daughters didn’t even like me.
When I finally responded to her and pointed out a few of the things you posted in this article, she really went off the deep end. One of my observations is that she only cares about herself and her hurt feelings. She doesn’t do anything for the greater good of others, even her children. It’s like she’s a small child in a 45 year old body. Thankfully, she leaves us alone now. So do my husband’s daughters, who are apparently as nuts as she is. What I think is saddest is that the cycle will probably repeat itself… but as long as I don’t have to be a party to it, I guess it’s okay.
Good to have you back!
Thank you, knotheadusc.
Two similar themes in your comment and PoB’s: Pointing out the behavior often causes these types to implode and unload, then DARVO (Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender). Textbook.
Cluster Bs see the world in black and white. If you accuse them of behaving badly, they hear you labeling them a bad person. That would put anyone on the defensive, healthy or not.
I wonder if there’s a way to show someone unconditional acceptance without being appeasing.
Mike,
I like you’re point about showing “unconditional acceptance without being appeasing.” That’s how I’ve tried to handle my relationship with my mother. I have very strict boundaries with her, but the key is that I keep those boundaries to myself — she doesn’t know about them. Also, when she tries to “bait me” into a fight, I do my very best not to take the bait. Rather, I just change the subject and pretend like I didn’t notice. It’s a rather exhausting process. But it’s necessary if I want to have any kind of relationship with my mother. I hope that helps!
Some might call that “pretending not to notice” as being passive aggressive. Same with boundaries you choose to keep secret. I think you may to something though, regardless of the labels.
Wow. The comment from “Jen” could have just as easily been written by my ex. It’s fascinating how these ppl never give a second thought as to anyone else’s feelings other than their own. And when they are called out on their shit, they offer nothing but excuses accompanied by an award winning performance in an attempt to convince onlookers of their victimhood status. The performance I refer to is proof that they can change, but they’re too full of self-pity to make substantive changes. “High energy” albeit temporary performances, however, are part & parcel of the act.
Hello PoB,
Welcome to S4M. I’m glad that the woman who reminds you of Jen is EX.
I’m always amazed at how many other people are going through or have been through what my BF & I are going through with his ex wife — not to mention what he put up with during the 12 years of marriage! He’s truly a good man and 5 years APE (after psycho ex) we are still working through some baggage from his time with her. I’m so grateful for this site & the forum.
Anyway, his ex is recently “officially engaged” to the love of her life, couldn’t be happier, etc, etc, etc. She feels compelled to email or text these things to her ex…maybe the more she declares it, the more true it becomes. Who knows? Can’t find logic where there is none. Well, during the unofficial engagement period, she had a few blow ups with the fiancée’s young son. Calling him names (p*ssy, for example), giving him the finger, etc. She later explained it all away by saying she was jealous of the boy because she wanted to be fiancee’s #1. Oh, and she’d been drinking. But she “doesn’t drink…[please standby for fine print]…like that anymore”. Her “admitting” to this happening & her reason – I mean – excuse of jealousy will definitely be the extent of her being held accountable. Because how dare YOU call HER out on anything? What’s that? You have facts & proof & recordings? Eye witnesses?? No matter. She did not ever do anything wrong & never will. I mean, she closes her emails with “have a blessed day”. How could anyone who goes to church & have that email signature ever do anything wrong?? I digress… So this guy (who is the head of a school for troubled youths, by the way) is having no issue enabling her because, as he has stated, “we all have issues…we all have meltdowns”. Um…I don’t think so. The kids also tell us that fiancée disappears when their mom begins going off on his son because it’s “better” that she gets upset at the kid…when she’s mad at the fiancée, the whole house “blows up”.
The ex also likes to remind my BF that she was suffering from post-partem during their marriage (4 kids) & that she is all better now. She WAS sick, but is no longer (translation: you’re missing out on the best of ME!). I should mention that she was twice diagnosed with bipolar disorder during the marriage & never returned to either Dr beyond the diagnosis. Clearly she has found the cure…I wish she’d share it with the world so we could all live in peace
What a mess. If you ex’s fiance allows this woman to treat his son in this way, I can only wonder what happens at his school for troubled youth. He’ll be lucky if his own son doesn’t become a student there.
“I’M MAD AT THE WORLD!”
That’s what my CBx told a mutual friend when asked what she was always so angry about. This was shortly after our separation, and shortly before my eyes were finally opened about the extent of her serious disorder. For a long time, I believed that her dysphoria that was punctuated with rages and binge drinking was partly caused by me, or living with me, and I found myself in the escalating yet hopeless cause of trying to please her. Because I believed that her terrible alcoholism was her main problem, I started going to Al Anon, where one of the first things I learned were the three “C”s about a loved one’s alcoholism; “You didn’t Cause it, you can’t Control it, and you can’t Cure it”. I think the three “C”s could easily apply to BPD, NPD, etc., and by relieving yourself from the blame and responsibility for THEIR abusive behavior, you’ll go a long way in getting out of the fog. They won’t be able to guilt-trip you, hoover you, or gaslight you when you remove yourself from their crazy-equation.
Recently, after an unnecessarily huge drama (started by the CBx of course) my 15 year old son seemed to have his eyes opened. He made some very good observations about his mother that are all consistent with her BPD, and he now looks at his mother very differently. He told me, “Mom doesn’t remember things the way I do”, “Mom thinks the worst of EVERYONE”,”Mom never apologizes and she always blames someone else for her screw-ups” and “Mom holds onto grudges like crazy”. When he asked what I was laughing about, I told him, “It’s nice to know I’m not the only one she feels that way about. Now you’ll know that when she trashes me, she’s just saying I’m like everyone else.”
Hi Swan Song,
I am glad your son’s eyes are starting to open. Just remember, he’s still young, the FOG is strong and he still has to live with her. Keep doing what you’ve been doing by providing with a healthier and far more loving alternative.
Do you think that now he is maturing toward manhood that he is becoming her target instead of you?
“Do you think that now he is maturing toward manhood that he is becoming her target instead of you?”
BINGO!
When my oldest son (now 23) was 15, he lived entirely with his mother after she did an alienation number on him. However, after a year and a half of no contact with me, and being dominated by his mother, he started failing at school, he became covered in acne, and he started to cut on himself. He was a mess. He was also becoming her favorite target for abuse, especially when his voice changed and he started to sound like me. My youngest son would report to me that his Mom was calling his older brother an asshole, just like his father, and she started cutting him off from his friends and isolating him. When he’d had enough, he told her he was going to live with me, and she told him she never wanted to see him again. Within a few weeks of living with me, he made a dramatic turn-around, his grades went from F’s to A’s, his acne cleared up, and he became his old outgoing self.
In the last year, my youngest (now 15) had a growth spurt, his voice changed, and he’s not only his Mother’s favorite target, but now his sister (21) has also joined in with the abuse and bullying. He tells me that he feels the need to hide in the corner when he’s over there, and that whenever he tries to defend himself or protect his boundaries, they team up on him, and they tell him that he’s becoming abusive like his Dad. Apparently, according to him, whenever there’s an argument over there, my name comes up as the cause. I’m the “Emanuel Goldstein” upon which they can heap all of their problems and lay all of the blame for anything bad that happens in their lives. Fortunately, my son can now see the truth through the bullshit, but he still wants a relationship with his mother, so he doesn’t dare tell her that he wants to live with me most of the time (he does) because he’s afraid that she’ll disown him the way she did to his older brother. He’s in a real bind.
I can’t help wondering what will happen at his Mom’s if he decides to live with me full time. I imagine it wouldn’t take too long for his Mom and his Sister to be at each other’s throats, it will get ugly. I don’t know where my daughter would go if her mother booted her out, I would not let her stay with me for very long, I wouldn’t want to be rid of one crazy just to have it replaced with another. I know that sounds cruel for a father to say, but she’s now an adult, and sadly she’s too sick for me to deal with.
Your stance regarding your daughter possibly living with you isn’t at all cruel.
Just because a person shares your DNA does not give them carte blanche to abuse you. Should your ex kick your daughter out or daughter storm out because the ex starts targeting her and seek to live with you, I would not let her in your home unless she agrees to the house rules and respects your boundaries.
If daughter won’t or can’t respect your boundaries than she forfeits the privilege of being in your home and having your assistance in other ways.
People like your ex and daughter really are amazing in that they expect everything in return for nothing — or worse — expect you to cater to their every whim and kiss their asses while they’re abusing and exploiting you.
You give the same boundaries to your daughter as you would to anyone else. Who knows, if it isn’t too late, which at 21 it very well may be, you might be able to give your daughter a very important life lesson that she will never learn from her mother:
Don’t expect people to help you, be kind to you or want to have a relationship with you when you have consistently shit all over them. The world and everyone in it do not owe you anything. If you’re a nasty, entitled asshole, healthy people will not want to be around you.
It’s pretty basic stuff, but somewhere along the way, people like your ex failed to learn this.
Amen to this. My husband has two daughters. One of them was always referred to as the “dragon baby”, because she was temperamental. The other one is sort of a “golden child”. Now those two girls are young women. The so-called “dragon baby” was actually nice when I met her. And while she did disown my husband, she didn’t do it in an extremely cruel way as her younger sister did. I don’t like her, but I think if she came around, I might come around. I think she just caved to pressure.
The other daughter is a carbon copy of her mother. Her interactions with my husband have been mean and cold. When she was 9 years old and visiting us for the first and only time, she slapped my husband across the face for having beer in the refrigerator. When she was 12 years old, she sent him a letter disowning him using very cruel, hateful language. She has a blog that my husband reads occasionally and it’s pretty clear she’s like her mother’s mini me, right down to her delusional thinking.
I have this feeling that there will come a day when one or both of them will approach him for whatever reason… Mom put them up to it because she’s angry with her current husband… They’re mad at mom and getting back in touch with my husband is the best way to piss her off… They’ve been convinced by a church leader that my husband needs to be reactivated in their faith… There are any number of ways this could happen; we have already seen it happen with the ex’s son and his bio dad, who was cut out of his life for over 15 years. I suspect that these kids will expect us to welcome them with open arms. We made that mistake with their older brother, my husband’s ex stepson. In the end, he screwed us over. We have noticed, though, that their mother never really lets anyone go and won’t hesitate to pop out of the woodwork if she thinks she can get away with it.
I have told my husband that they are his kids and if they want to reconnect with him, I won’t stand in the way. But I probably won’t stick around to witness it in person. If my husband’s daughters do come around, I don’t want them in my home. I have told my husband many times that you can’t reward people for being assholes, especially if they’re your kids. When you reward people for acting like assholes, they become emboldened to continue acting like assholes or they become super entitled assholes.
I think one of the most responsible things a parent can do for a child is teach them how to behave appropriately. That means teaching them to respect others and not letting their sick behavior contaminate your life or the lives of other healthy people around you. Our lives improved dramatically when he finally just resigned himself to letting them do their own thing.
Exactly right, knotheadusc. Excellent boundary setting by you and your husband.
It’s heartbreaking, but the daughters are adults now. They have a choice, whether they know it or not.
Sure enough, on Christmas day, we found out my husband’s younger daughter contacted my husband’s dad after five years of not speaking to him. I have a feeling the psycho ex put her up to it. Something stinks.
We really need to put together a documentary on this. These women are nothing but domestic terrorists and they are experts at what they do. God Bless Dr. T for her insight into this nightmare and her ability to peel back the layers of their methodology of destruction. The number of lives and families destroyed by them is astronomical. I would say it is epidemic at this point.
Thanks, megatron. All I do is observe and support. The folks who are living this, fighting to get out, protect their kids and rebuild their lives are the real heroes.
Funny you should say that, as i started speaking to people recently about doing something like this (i work in film, when i’m not working in software). All we need is the money, and the rest is easy. There’s definitely a case for it.
Yes please do this documentary, I’m broke but will chip in a few dollars and do anything to get this to TV or film.
Right. And is it only me, but is anyone else getting sick of the medicalization of horrible behavior? But for family immunity, a goodly number of these folks would be called upon to respond in criminal court. I love the euphemisms in this field, too. “Domestic theft.” Uh-huh. That’s when the Axis II cleans out the partner, lock stock and barrel. Because of the immunities that attach to home and hearth, very little is said or done about these matters, at least not very much in the public eye. It’s not like Jeff Foxworthy said about “mutual funds,” which is when everybody has a good time.
Seriously. I hope men are paying attention and not suffering in silence. Getting sick of men being kind of hunkered down and caved in on themselves. (Although it is totally understandable, the signs of a life lived in fear are never attractive.)
Well, that’s my $.02, worth every penny of it.
I was driving over to my ex’s to visit my 3 ½ yo. daughter, and it began to snow. I was thrilled at the prospect of being there to share with my daughter the experience of her first snow. My daughter was putting on her winter coat and full of joy when I got there. She runs to me and says, “Daddy it’s snowing” then the eruption started. My ex comes into the room screaming; my dog had jumped on a bed all of 2 seconds (she has 2 dogs btw). She was unrelenting in her screaming and profanity. It was a powerful display, like a force of nature. It was heart wrenching to watch my daughter’s face go from a look of wonder to one of being terrified and confused.
The next day I was asked to come over to watch my daughter, as the ex wanted to do some Christmas shopping. I came right away because at the time I only got to see my daughter at the caprice of my ex. When my daughter saw me she began crying and would not come out from under the bed. She was terrified. I could not placate her. I told the ex I was not staying and would come back another time. Act 2 of the screaming and profanity – “yes you will stay!” When I say screaming it is not hyperbole. It is so intense it is almost unnatural. I put my hands ups, mute, and backed away. She gave me a silent ride back to my place; I was lending her my car that day. When I got out of the car she asked me if I wanted to have lunch.
Lunch after that? No apologies or acknowledgment of the episode? WTF?
Dr. T asks: Can these individuals control their behavior or not? I don’t think they can control the outbursts, but they never ever accept responsibiliy for them afterward. In other instances they are selective in whom they target for their abuse. In this instance I believe thay can control their behavior and put on a mask. When she is nice to you she wants something, and when she is abusive she wants something.
Playmisty: I know exactly what you’re going through. What you describe is like a synposis of many visits I had with my daughter. Just when you’re connecting, bonding, seeing happiness in your child’s face (and your own), the BPD/Biatch strikes and ruins everything…and sick as it is, she enjoys inflicting the pain on both of you.
I used to give rides and do favors for my ex too. That’s a very dangerous thing to do. I suggest you stop immediately. Sooner or later, something will happen and you’re going to get caught up in some bad shit. Stop the favors/car loaning/rides etc. Just sayin.
“When she is nice to you, she wants something, and when she is abusive, she wants something.”
That comment reminds me of a tenet from the book “How to be a Rainmaker,” a book for salespeople. Which is, ‘Give to Get’–an effective strategy for business relationships, but NOT for personal relationships.
For whatever reason, Sociopath-spectrum PDIs seem to intuitively apply Give-to-Get for all their personal relationships…only they seem to think that giving others a nickel['s worth of love, affection, compassion, gifts,thoughtfulness,ec.] equates to your owning them $5,000['s worth...] in return.
There is NEVER a true give-and-receive with these types.
Wow good call GirlInside. Thats not just an analogy. My ex, and another woman I dated last year, were sales people (figuratively speaking). They perceive the weakness, your need, the chink in your armor, tailor their sales pitch/play to it, and reel you in. Oh, and you’re supposed to be grateful for the privilege of them taking you in their emotional scheme/scam.
Yes, TheGirlInside, excellent call on seeing the parallels to salesmanship. My soon-to-be ex viewed (views?) our relationship in a very transactional way. She also frequently mentioned how, as she was growing up, she intentionally copied her father’s skill at salesmanship, and how she combined that skill set with a careful and conscious adherence to her mother’s advice to “always kill them with kindness.”
It all sounds so harmless on the front end, at least to people like me. And, if one was going to be killed, what better way than by kindness?
But then you get to the back end — the place in a marriage where, on whatever small issue, neither person is going to get the precise outcome he or she wants. I had been *told* that these are the places for compromise. I had been *raised* to see that one person expresses a desire and the other acquiesces as he disassociates himself from whatever independent desire he may have held (of course, I wasn’t around for the early years of my parents’ marriage, the years when friction may have occurred, the years before the pattern was set). I also failed to fully appreciate that my in-laws’ relationship was, from my perspective, vicious. Not overtly, but passively. Being around them remains one of the most uncomfortable feelings I have experienced.
So, in my own marriage, my wife and I mapped out our first areas of compromise by my wife expressing her preference for things, and me agreeing to it. I had learned my role so well that, in those early days, I always thought that each little thing wouldn’t be a big deal. I had always assumed that, eventually, there would be some reciprocity. I would want something, and she would agree even though she didn’t necessarily agree. But that didn’t happen. It took a couple of years for me to recognize that my marital happiness was within my control, just as long as I could choke down my disagreement with a multitude of little, petty things. Everything would be fine if I expressed agreement to her desires (even if I did not agree). Nothing was fine if I expressed disagreement.
Another problem was, during those couple of years, I was only intuiting the problem with this arrangement, and then I was acting out on that feeling. In those instances where I expressed my disagreement, it was typically met with passive aggression, and we would begin to argue and fight. In those arguments, we would each run through our full arsenals of persuasive techniques. Hers is a variety of passive-aggressive techniques that eventually evolves into a cross-examination against the transcript she prepares, in real-time, in her mind. I would engage in that for a while, but I would always end up shouting (which is how we resolved things in my household growing up). We would exhaust each other, both figuratively and literally. Hostilities would cease when I submitted to her wishes about whatever inane, pedestrian thing it was that we were arguing about in the first place.
For years, I had defined the end of our arguments as the point when I would offer an apology (always for my shouting — that was the thing she (rightly) took issue with). But, now, I suspect that my thinking was incorrect. She never offered her own apologies, nor would she reciprocate after I offered mine. She also never accepted any of my apologies. Rather, her approach was to claim the need for time to process her feelings. Now that things are over, I can also say that she never let me know when that process concluded. Honestly, and even though it is a strong word — never. It seems to me that, for her, reconciliation was not a factor. My apologies meant nothing. I doubt that she even heard them.
Towards the end, I stopped shouting. This, amazingly, seemed to cause her to shout. I pointed this out, but she had an argument for that (“You taught me how to do it.”). The first time she did that, I told her that it was wonderful that she had only recently picked up the habit — because that meant she should be able to kick it in no time at all; after all, I was raised to be a shouter, and with just 6-8 months of work I had gotten it under control. I thought that was the end of her shouting. It was for that evening.
But it wasn’t the end of her shouting. The second time I heard her tell me that I had taught her to shout, I just stopped arguing with her. About everything. If I disagreed with something she wanted, I told her so. When she started in with whatever fighting technique she wanted to employ, I just calmly insisted that we needed to find a compromise. This invariably pushed her alarm button, and the raised voice and shouting would begin. When that happened, I calmly told her that we could discuss it when she could stop shouting, or being rude, or calling names (or all of the above). This invariably pushed her nuclear button. Then I would walk away. This invariably pushed her global-thermonuclear-war button.
For a while, I was confused about how doing what I was asked to do (stop shouting) could make things worse. I focused on the behavior, and quickly found that (a) I gained a better understanding of her objection to being shouted at; and (b) I won’t put up with that crap. So it only took a couple of months for me to ask for divorce. We’re in that process now.
But it wasn’t until very recently — and in no small part because of this article and this comment — that I noticed that, in our arguments in the waning days of our marriage, we never came to an agreement on the things we were disagreeing about. Or, to state it more precisely in terms of our original relationship dynamic, I didn’t cave.
That’s when things started to get really bizarre. I recall her mentioning at one point (with a small degree of self-awareness) that I needed to understand that I had established a pattern of acquiescing to her wishes, and therefore I shared in the responsibility for her emotional outbursts now that I was changing the dynamic. Again, she had a chastened tone when she said this. But she still said it, and she stood by it. She followed it up with a comment about how, when we were starting out, she had told me that she had trust issues (she did tell me that, and it was obvious), and that she didn’t really trust me (she actually told me the opposite of that). Recently, she equated my request for a divorce with “[my] evasion of the consequences of my deplorable behavior.” In other words, she has decided that I am solely responsible for the unworkable state of our marriage, and therefore I am honorbound to refrain from asking for a divorce. (?) This all seems nuts to me. But I digress.
I don’t know if I can answer the doctor’s question — my wife is not diagnosed (nor am I, for that matter), and although I find the resources and stories here familiar, they are different (in degree) than my own experiences. In my experience, my wife can control herself, but only when she wants to. Her desire for self-control seems to exist only as a means to an end; if she wants something. And, in that regard, part of controlling herself includes letting herself loose on me at appropriate times. She only seems to lose complete control at the moment when it becomes clear that her salespitch is not going to get her what she wants. Then it’s just all-out war.
Throughout all of this, she is not even negotiating. She is selling. Compromise is just not in her vocabulary.
Ugh.
Good salesmanship is a terrific skill that I think most BPDs share, they persuade you to ‘buy’ the phony character that they’ve developed to conceal their true persona. But in the end, you’ll have purchased nothing but heartache from them, and it’s easy to argue that they’re actually ‘taking’ instead of ‘selling’.
TI85 – nice summary. Pretty much described how the emotional landscape was with my ex. And, like you, I would try to think things through, resolve in an intellectual way, assuming my ex would be ‘reasonable’ and choose the most logical solution to whatever conflict was going on at the time.
When I acquiesced and let her have her way, she would rub my face in it. My emotional surrenders were perceived as weakness, and I would be humiliated and emasculated by her for having given in to her demands. When I would stand up for myself and disagree with her, I would be met with verbal and often physical violence/aggression. It was literally a lose-lose situation. I finally concluded that she wanted 2 things: 1) Conflict. She thrived on it and the negative energy it created; 2) My emotional pain/suffering. She took pleasure seeing me hurt.
It was difficult for me to fathom that someone would purposely initiate conflict for the sole purpose of conflict, let alone a pretty woman like my ex also initiating emotional pain and suffering, again, just for the sole purpose of seeing me suffer. I believe these kinds of people, on the sociopath spectrum, enjoy seeing others suffer.
I understand there are people in the world who will steal, cheat, lie, rape etc. because they get some kind of tangible benefit from it. Its twisted on their part, but I am aware of this and can usually prevent being a ‘victim’ of these types of crimes.
What I still struggle with are people, especially women/moms, who steal, like, rape, pillage, destroy despite NO TANGIBLE benefit, or even for a ‘net loss’ (financial etc). they still perpetrate their emotional crimes b/c they cannot stop, they enjoy seeing others suffer, at all cost. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to fully understand or accept there are people like this in the world.
“…..She took pleasure seeing me hurt.”
“I believe these kinds of people, on the sociopath spectrum, enjoy seeing others suffer.”
The impression I got from my CBx when she would intentionally inflict pain and drama, didn’t seen to be as much about the pleasure she got from seeing someone else suffer, although I often caught her smirking at my misfortunes and injuries. Creating discord and hurtful drama almost seemed to be the only way she could communicate to those closest to her the pain and unhappiness she was experiencing herself. It was as though she was saying, “I’m going to make your life as miserable as mine, just so you know what I feel like”. It’s their way of expressing just how pissed off they are with the world and their lives; make everyone else as miserable as they are, because misery loves company.
Perhaps. But I think most sociopathic ppl derive some pleasure from seeing others suffer. I think its some kind of release for them. The mind games they play there’s really no benefit other than getting some kind of ‘kick’ from seeing someone confused and hurt, and the control/power play I suppose.
I would believe it. My ex-friends actually wrote to me, after reading about all my anger, pain and sadness at the things they had done, “We had a good laugh.”
Though, of course, the laughter ended later on in the message as they threatened to sue….
“Recently, she equated my request for a divorce with “[my] evasion of the consequences of my deplorable behavior.” In other words, she has decided that I am solely responsible for the unworkable state of our marriage, and therefore I am honorbound to refrain from asking for a divorce. (?) This all seems nuts to me. But I digress.”
Hmmm…. This sounds eerily familiar. When my husband and I decided to break off a friendship after this woman kept accusing me of things and raged at me and refused to listen to the truth, then after a time of trying to reconcile, we asked for a six-month break to cool off and come at it again later–Her response to me: “You know where we live if you decide to GROW UP and stop feeling upset over the consequences of YOUR BEHAVIOR.” Ummmmmm…NO. Just no acknowledgement at all that this breakup was the consequence of HER behavior and constant accusations. To this day, she still claims she did nothing wrong.
I think they can control themselves just fine, when they think it’s in their best interest to do so. My ex was able to “behave” around people she was afraid of or wanted to impress. And I think the “I do this because you make me” statements, in my ex’s case, were just her admitting that her behavior was a strategy to get what she wanted.
Of course, now that I have a little distance, I think my ex was pretty far down the continuum towards sociopath rather than borderline. In another post, you mentioned that it’s possible to pity a borderline. It’s hard to pity my wife, beyond a Mr. T-like “pity the fool.” She was/is cold and calculating. Before I got out, I was able to see that in any given situation, with any people, she was watching everyone, regardless of what the rest of her face was expressing.
The only time I can think of when she seemed to regret her actions was once when she slipped up at work and make a nasty joke about a VP to another co-worker, and she realized it was possible the VP had overheard it and she might get in trouble.
I think she’d file away the results of her behavior for future reference. Eg. “If I do X to Mr. E, I get presents!,” or, “If I do Y at work, I get praise from my boss and co-workers.”
Excellent post, Mr. E.
This post was so insightful for me. It’s so nice to have a new blog entry from Dr. T. Just when I think I have learned all that I need about BPD, I suddenly learn a whole bunch more. In reading some of Jen’s comments, I felt myself empathizing and feeling for Jen and her problems. Then Dr. T’s clarifying observations bring home the truth. I am not as able to see clearly the blamelessness and lack of empathy embedded in Jen’s rant. It’s like a I need an inner Dr.T to guide me through the labyrinth of self-blame and denial.
These are the same tactics my BPD/NPD wife uses to manipulate me, my feelings and my viewpoint. Those tactics are very effective for my wife and they worked well for her for years, until I began to discover the counseling at this S4M website and through other books and materials. I now know that I have been vulnerable to these women and I am trying to learn why and to change. I am not blameless in these matters, and I suffer and then withdraw, am depressed and feel guilt, all of which certainly isn’t good for building closeness with my daughters and my family.
Like many of the posts here, my worry has turned more toward the effects and alienation of my 2 teenage daughters, who are firmly under their Mom’s control. I now realize the PAS probably began years ago, I didn’t recognize it and capitulated on so much that I probably should not have. The marriage is emotionally destructive and toxic and should probably end soon. But divorcing my BPD wife, who is a lawyer, strikes fear in my heart. My teenage daughters, alienated and rude as they are to me, are the reason I try every day to cope and carry on.
The only thing worse than a BPD woman is a BPD wife, and the only thing worse than a BPD wife is a BPD wife with a law degree.
Don’t beat yourself up for withdrawing, etc. These are normal responses to the unique misery of trying to maintain a relationship with someone with BPD traits.
If you leave your wife, you may find that your daughters, after the initial crisis has passed, develop a new respect for you.
As for the fear…find a tough lawyer who knows what he’s doing with respect to high conflict divorce and together develop a solid plan in stealth, the fear should be manageable. Good luck.
JP
“You may find that your daughters, after the initial crisis has passed, develop a new respect for you.”
Thank you JP. I would hold on to that hope if and when leaving becomes a reality. Thoughts that I would be mutilating their young lives keep me in place. It feels like I am standing idly by watching their Mom mold them into “mini-me’s” of her, with the blaming, avoiding responsibility, constant ridiculing of others, etc. A sort of “enmeshment” has developed with the 3 of them over the last couple years, as the emotional distance has increased between their mother and I. Mom emanates an increasing disrespect toward me and the kids follow her lead. Teenagers are disrespectful, that’s life. But it feels like I get the “full monty” of disdain and ignoring, while they often happily interact with Mom. They hardly talk to me anymore. Maybe leaving is the only way to gain their respect.
Socal Dad: I’m a Socal Dad too. BPDs/NPDs and the sociopaths are abundant here in southern California. You got involved with one too. I also withdrew a lot and capitulated much; really beat myself up for not being a ‘stronger man’, standing up to my ex, trying to save my daughter from her and the crazy enmeshment. I still feel guilty to this day…even though I did all I could and the legal system not only failed me and my daughter, it was downright abusive to me. Save yourself while you can. Don’t be the hero/martyr, because nothing you say or do will change anything. You’re dealing with a bona fide sociopath; a miniature Hitler if you will. Save yourself and your daughters will see the example you set of escaping and utilizing an exit strategy. Staying only teaches them they must stay and endure abuse too, IMO.
“BPDs/NPDs and the sociopaths are abundant here in southern California.”
Hm. My BPD/NPD/sociopathic ex-friends are from southern California….
My husband’s children, two daughters, have also been “brainwashed” by BPD Mom into not only thinking Dad is a cheating slacking loser but that men can not be relied on.
What?
He is a hard-working, moral person and she has the two teenagers saying things like “everyone lies,” and believing it. More concerning is the emotional lability and unavailability and immaturity they are both displaying. They are emotionally and developmentally stunted. How will they ever grow up? How do kids of BPD parents mature?
These are great posts, thanks,
Dr. T,
Your use of the painting, “The Scream,” is perfect for this article.